Wednesday, August 21, 2024

Have you ever questioned your atheism?

In this entry I continue my interaction with Michael Brown’s 7 honest questions for atheists. This post is my answer to Brown’s fifth question. My answers to Brown’s previous questions can be accessed here:
1. Why are you an atheist? 
2. Can an atheist have purpose? 
3. Are you sure there’s no god? 
4. Can science answer the remaining mysteries of the universe?
In his fifth question, Brown queries atheists on their personal experiences, asking whether or not they’ve had any which challenge their atheism. The subliminal assumption seems to be that atheism is a worldview like a religion, and that certain experiences that one might have may conflict with the fundamental tenets of atheism. But atheism is not a worldview, and as such atheism has no tenets to speak of. Theism is not fundamental, and thus neither is atheism as an antithesis to theism. One can be an atheist and, like theists, still get the issue of metaphysical primacy wrong. (In fact, many atheists do!) 

Brown’s question is the following:
Have you had any experiences in life that caused you to question your atheism? Has something happened to you that seemed genuinely supernatural or otherworldly? Or have you been confronted with some information that shook your atheistic foundations, such as a scientific argument for intelligent design? If so, how have you dealt with such doubts to your atheism?
I have noted in previous writings that apologists for a religious viewpoint tend to treat certainty on the non-believer’s part as a kind of threat, and consequently much of the substance of apologetics is aimed at undermining the non-believer’s certainty. This certainty is a barrier which the apologist needs to break through if his apologetic is going to have any chance of catching more fish for Jesus. If an atheist announces that he is certain in his atheism, the apologist will need to weaken that certainty before plying other tricks of his trade. So when an apologist encounters a non-believer who stands on his convictions, the apologist can be expected to wince with “Don’t be so sure!” While I don’t think Brown’s fifth question is sharp enough for such purposes, it does seem to be pointed in that general direction. 

My answer to Brown here is a firm no, certainly not since I learned about the proper relationship between consciousness and its objects. Prior to my familiarization with basic Objectivist principles, I was philosophically vulnerable to all sorts of mystical suggestion. I had no grasp of the axioms and the issue of metaphysical primacy – I was unaware that such ideas even exist, so I was, as one would expect, philosophically defenseless against claims of supernaturalism. That is not to say that I believed every otherworldly claim that I had encountered, but I had no fundamental principle by which I could reliably and consistently distinguish between what is real and what I was actually imagining and thus rule out fantastical notions in a principled manner. In fact, any awareness I had of the distinction the real and the imaginary, albeit implicit, was tranquilized by constant distractions all around me which reinforced a mental habit of not seeing what was right in front of me all along. But once I grasped the essence of the primacy of existence principle, it was as though a light had come on: reality is not the product of conscious activity, and reality does not conform to what I or anyone else might wish, hope, believe, prefer or imagine. This truth is fundamental and unchanging, and there is no area of knowledge that is immune to its implications. This understanding is a power unlike any other that I had encountered in my life. 

I have stated before that I do not doubt that people have had experiences which they consider highly significant. I would think that eventually everyone who has reached a certain age has had some remarkable experience or other, perhaps many in some cases. I myself have had many. It is not the fact that we experience things that is susceptible to problems, but rather the way in which we go about identifying the nature of our experiences, their causes, and their implications for our lives. If an individual claims to have experienced something supernatural, I readily grant that this person did in fact have an experience. But I would inquire on the methodology by which he went about determining that it had a supernatural or mystical impetus. Even more, I would ask him what his ultimate starting point is. Insistence that no other explanation can account for the experience may very well be cover for unwillingness to countenance mundane explanations. And from what I have observed among those who are invested in belief in the supernatural, claims to have had experiences of the supernatural are typically not met with probing scrutiny – that is saved for those who express doubts or reluctance to accept such claims. The prevailing interrogative procedure is not “Why do you believe?” but rather “Why don’t you believe?” as though uncritical acceptance of supernatural claims should be the norm. 

To claim that one has experienced something miraculous is to attribute the causality of that experience to the supernatural. But causality is a feature of nature to begin with. I remember hearing a story once about a church burning down and the only thing which survived the flames unscathed was a bible. This, it was reported, was miraculous. Now there was no way for me to know this directly – it was something I learned about from other sources. So I was in no position to determine whether any door hinges, water pipes or breaker boxes survived unscathed as well. As the recipient of such a report I could not investigate such details myself. After all, if a light switch survives a housefire, who would find this significant enough to announce it? If a house had burned down and everything in it but a doorknob had burned to a crisp, would anyone think that was at indicative of divine intervention? I suppose not. But a bible? Now, that must be miraculous, right? And the rest of the church? It’s all gone. All destroyed. Quite probably many other bibles did not survive, for churches typically do not have only one. So a church burning down is not miraculous, but the survival of a single item in the church is miraculous. A miracle, then, is compatible with widescale destruction of value, so when believers pray for miracles, are they prepared for the destruction that may come as part of the package? What parishioner of that church would consider the survival of one bible resulting from the destruction of his church a good exchange? The gathering place has been sacrificed for an artefact that already existed. The people already believed, so what was gained as a result of the sacrifice? 

But notice something else here: a miracle claim typically involves attributing the cause of something that is seen to something that is not seen. We see the church, we see the wreckage after it burned down, and we see the surviving bible. (The char marks on the south wall may on first glance look like Jesus, but to me it looks more like Ivan Turgenev.) And this is all attributed to a supernatural being which one never sees. Such claims are brought to us by the same bunch which produces thinkers who parrot David Hume’s skepticism in regards to inductive inferences. Hume famously ruled that since no “necessary connexion” between a cause and its effect can be seen, one should therefore not consider his conclusions connecting the two to be definitive or certain. But yet we can be certain that an invisible supernatural agent prevailed upon itself to allow the destruction of an entire congregational meeting house and yet save one item from the flames. Really? If even the bible perished in the flames, would it not still be a miracle – one in which the supernatural agent made the choice not to allow anything to survive? The tendency in such matters is to presume that the skeptic has all the burden to demonstrate that a mundane explanation prevails over and against any supernatural “account,” while the religionist bears no burden in explaining how he “knows” that a supernatural agent was involved at all.

The point here is that it all seems quite slippery to suppose one has the intellectual acumen to determine on the one hand that natural causation played no role in an event and yet, on the other, to be entirely certain that a supernatural force must be behind it all. What engines of epistemology allow for such shoddy reasoning? On the one hand, we have the resources we need to draw so-called “naturalistic” conclusions right here in reality, and on the other all we have is what we can imagine when it comes to supernaturalism. Might it be that the believer really just wants to be a witness to something he considers miraculous? A worldview which takes supernaturalism seriously and emphasizes mystical notions as core truths will likely predispose its adherents to a psychological yearning to witness something he believes is supernatural.

If I had an experience and claimed it was a miraculous event, I would have to ask myself: on what basis could I possibly determine that it was in fact miraculous? Some thinkers seem treat it as a matter of elimination: we have before us a long hallway with many doors on either side, each representing mundane possibilities. As we go down the hallway and find doors on either side all locked, we come to the very last door at the end of the hallway – it represents extramundane options not available to us until now, and it’s not only unlocked, but wide open! But that’s just it: it will always be unlocked, even if others we find before it can be opened, because we will always have the capacity to imagine alternatives to what we find right here on earth. Yes, that door at the end is open, and Rod Serling is waiting there with a smile and a smoldering cigarette.

What’s most ironic about Brown’s question is the fact that my own experiences militate in a direction opposite to where Brown might want things to go. For my experiences have consistently demonstrated that existence exists independent of conscious activity and that human beings have the capacity to imagine things. My experience has also demonstrated to me that, if thinkers do not secure their cognitive habits with rational principles, they very well may miss the signposts indicating that they’ve departed from the real and into a realm of fictive invention. I would think that any honest thinker can relate to this observation, even in retrospect.

Prior to grasping the principle of the primacy of existence and its implications for entire structure of my thinking, I was caught in an oblivious haze and blown around by a storm of indiscriminate winds. While I was what I might now call vaguely hungry for fundamental principles – implicitly sensing that there must be a grounding to all knowledge which I had yet to discover, I did not have even a rudimentary understanding of the hierarchical nature of concepts. I had assumed that the deeper one might plunge into the fundamentals of knowledge, the more complex such matters would become and the more specialized I would need to be in order to grasp it – requiring skills and intellect that I simply did not have or know how to obtain, when in fact quite the opposite is actually the case. These truths are easy to grasp and may even seem trivial given their obviousness. But I did not know this, and if anyone in my social orbits had any genuine understanding in these areas, they certainly were not sharing it with me. 

Sometimes I figured that other thinkers must have attended some private meeting that I missed out on where all the secrets were laid out, and sometimes I figured that everyone else was as clueless on such matters as I more and more began to realize I was. It was a fog of ignorance either way, underscoring the facts that (a) I did not know these things – though I privately wanted to know them, and (b) in spite of all my time spent in classrooms, no teacher or classmate ever sat down and tried to impart such knowledge to me. The closest thing to an exception to this was a high school friend of mine who enrolled early in college and took a logic course; he was so excited to share what he was learning with me that he drew out all these Venn diagrams to demonstrate what he was studying. But at the time it all seemed both rather obvious as well as quite tedious to me, so his enthusiasm was less than infectious. That was my error entirely: a truth should not be dismissed as inconsequential simply because it seems obvious. If it is a fundamental truth – a truth on which other truths depend – one should prize it above all others. But I was under the impression that I should be expecting some earthshattering revelation to clear up all the fog, and I was not prepared to question that assumption. 

While deep in the stupor of this foggy haze, I joined a church and became a Christian. I let myself believe that this would finally enlighten me on the things I was yearning to discover. However, the exact opposite happened: I found myself surrounded by people, all ghoulishly clambering for a chance to dig their claws into my soul, who were far more misguided than I thought possible. It was a vat of cultish behavior distilled down to the most undiluted concentrate. After months of deep study of the Christian bible, I was no closer to understanding the hierarchical nature of concepts, the proper relationship between consciousness and its objects, the proper starting point to knowledge, etc. My first impressions were very mixed of course – everyone welcoming me with open arms, their expressions of neighborliness overflowing with warmth, while all utterances – from pulpit preaching to kitchen chatter – were profusely decorated with bible quotes and incantations to Jesus, so much so that it all came across as rather contrived for its own sake. But this was their normal, their culture, their daily bread as it were. I don’t think they even realized that they were faithfully reciting all the approved verbal formulas necessary just to stay on the Lord’s good side. But they must have been because the preacher’s job was to continually remind the congregants of the Lord’s bad side. It was just habit for them by this point. They all seemed beyond the point of no return. In spite of it all, what happened to me could have been much worse. I was just far too conscientious to go the distance. 

Christians often speak of protecting themselves with “the armor of God.” This comes from Ephesians 6:10-11, which says: “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.” The sheer number of denominations within Christianity – some of them antagonistic towards each other – should be sufficient to raise suspicions that this form of protection is not a set of rational principles. And it isn’t. Instead of rational principles, the believer has a pool of psychological devises assembled for the task of positively reinforcing his commitment to the imagery by screening out any and all data which conflict with the Christian devotional program, in whatever form it may take. Much of this consists in holy slogans and pious incantations (examples such as “if the Lord says the same,” “get thee behind me, Devil!" and “washed by the blood of Jesus” come to mind) deployed as coping mechanisms to ward off unsettling ideas, soothe the mind, and neutralize psychic stress all the while maintaining an outward façade of euphoric calm that’s supposed to signal the peace of Jesus and eternal salvation. For the believer, this strategy feels principled because it consistently refers back to a common source – namely Christian teaching, biblical instruction, church doctrine, etc., which are accepted and treated as fundamental truths, when in fact it is delusion. 

Centering one’s worldview on a commitment to the belief that whatever the bible says is true (to the point that one must be willing to sacrifice his life for it), does not equip a thinker to distinguish between fact and fantasy, reality and imagination. On the contrary, the very starting point of such a regime is something that can only be imagined, a diametric reversal of the proper relationship between consciousness and its objects, and consequently adherence to it will only predispose a thinker toward accepting fantastical notions – so long as they can be made to be compatible with the core details of the worldview – as at the very least plausible if not potentially true. I could approach another congregant and say something like, “The Lord has impressed on my heart to talk to you. He knows your burdens and sees your struggles,” and the congregant would be ready to accept this appeal on its face, because it would reaffirm what the congregant wants to be true. I could have just made it up, but that would not matter. 

By contrast, the principle of the primacy of existence – i.e., the recognition that reality exists and is what it is independent of consciousness, that reality is not a product of conscious activity, that wishing does not make it true, that the imaginary is not real – provides a thinker’s mind with the most powerful protection possible to man. 

by Dawson Bethrick

11 comments:

Robert Kidd said...

Hey Dawson,

Thank you for another great post. Indeed the primacy of existence principle is the most powerful of razors. All of my experiences resulted in a gradual erosion of the things I was taught as a child. When I finally grasped the primacy of existence, all lingering doubts that I had about atheism were destroyed utterly.

When you understand it and its implications, well, you have a choice to make. It's either to evade or be honest. I chose to be honest.

Regards,

Robert Kidd

Robert Kidd said...

Hi Dawson,

Speaking of the primacy of existence...Youtube keeps putting videos in my feed featuring Eli Ayalla. I commented on a video by a channel named The Think Institute titled How To Debate An Atheist As A Christian With Eli Ayalla. In the video, they were using TAG as their argument to use with atheists.

I used an argument that I believe I read on your blog.

I responded:

Your argument may be valid, but it's not sound. Your premise is that if knowledge, then God.

This premise is false, and I'll explain why.

If knowledge, then concepts. Human knowledge is conceptual in nature. This should not be a controversial statement. You are using concepts in the presentation of your argument.

If concepts, then the objective theory of concepts. Concepts are formed on the basis of sense-perception of reality. Any other theory of concepts is subjective in that concepts have no objective meaning; they are formed subjectively without reference to reality.

If the objective theory of concepts, then the objective understanding of metaphysics (the basic nature of existence). Since epistemology is not primary, it rests on metaphysics. The subjective understanding of metaphysics is the alternative to an objective understanding of existence. This is the notion that reality is dependent on consciousness. One can not base an objective understanding of knowledge on a subjective understanding of metaphysics, i.e., that reality conforms to conscious intentions. That would be, as you say, incoherent.

If the objective understanding of metaphysics, then the primacy of Existence Principle. The Primacy of Existence principle identifies the proper orientation of the relationship between consciousness and its objects. In that relationship, existence (the object of consciousness) has metaphysical primacy over consciousness. This means that reality is what it is and does what it does independent of anyone's thoughts, feelings, or statements to the contrary. Reality does not reconfigure itself to conform to consciousness. Wishing doesn't make things so.

If knowledge, then not God. The notion of God assumes the diametrical opposite of the Primacy of Existence principle. It assumes that reality is the product of a mind and that this mind controls it, maintains it, and can alter it at will by essentially wishing it to be so.

Knowledge, therefore, not God.

Robert Kidd said...

TheThinkInstitute responded: Thanks for your comment. However, the Christian will respond that if-then statements and all other logically related propositions presuppose the truth of the Christian worldview. The laws of logic and the principle of rational inference make sense within the Christian scheme of the world and no other.

To this, I responded:

I've just demonstrated why the Christian position is false. The Christian may assert that if-then statements presuppose the truth of the Christian worldview. I would ask The Christian if his statement is true independent of consciousness, i.e., independent of anyone's thoughts, beliefs, feelings, or statements to the contrary.

If he answers yes, he performatively affirms the primacy of existence, which is diametrically opposed to his worldview's metaphysical claims.

If he answers no, I'll state that while his statement that truth, the laws of logic, and the principles of rational inference make sense within the Christian scheme of the world, and no other might be true for him, it's not true for me. If he is consistent, he will have to accept this as his view is one in which truth is subjective. You can't claim without contradiction that truth is objective but that the nature of the universe is subjective, i.e., one in which the subject of consciousness holds metaphysical primacy over its objects. The Christian is stuck. There's no way out of this problem. That's what happens when you begin your worldview with "wishing makes it so."

He has yet to respond. I hope that he does.

Good night,

Robert Kidd


Bahnsen Burner said...

Hello Robert,

That is epic! I suspect the apologist you're interacting with has never seen a challenge to presuppositionalism like that before. And the reply - simply re-asserting what has already been challenged - is not surprising.

Please update if there's any further interaction on this. I'd be curious how apologists might try to tackle what you have presented.

Thank you for sharing!
Dawson

Robert Kidd said...

Hi Dawson,

He has yet to respond, and neither has Mr. Ayalla. I was hoping to see what they would have to say since the video is about how to debate with atheists. They advise the watcher to "push the atheist on his foundations and assumptions." They have a real-world opportunity to do that in the comments section. They may think my comments are silly and not worth responding to. I guess we'll never hear, but I will be sure to let you know. At least my comments didn't get deleted this time.

Have a productive day,

Robert Kidd

Robert Kidd said...

Hi Dawson,

This same appologist has challenged the primacy of existence with the "observer effect". According to physicists, the observer effect does not require a conscious observer. Anything that causes the wave function to collapse acts as an observer. The photons that strike our retina are absorbed and this triggers the nerve impulses to the brain that give us awareness of objects by the light rays that are reflected off of the object. Without this physical interaction between the retina and the photons we would not have visual awareness. So once again we see that consciousness is dependent on existence and not vice versa.

Robert

Robert Kidd said...

He's back. He had asked me what grounds the axiom of identity and I replied the fact that existence exists and to exist is to be something specific.

His response:

"Existence exists" is a proposition that presupposes the truth of the laws of logic (specifically the law of identity), which presuppose God. Any reasoning being done about reality rely on logic. And logic makes sense only in the Christian worldview. You're also assuming uniformity in nature, and the continuation of true propositions over time.

I replied: Thank you for your response. No, the laws of logic presuppose that something exists, a consciousness capable of conceptual integration exists, and that things are what they are independent of consciousness. These facts are known implicitly long before we come to an understanding of logic. In fact, on what basis could we understand or need logic without these fundamental truths. Logic is a tool of cognition used to integrate our knowledge into a hierarchical, non-contradictory structure. The axioms come first, then taken together; they imply a corollary axiom, the primacy of existence. Logic is a method of intentional adherence to the facts of reality. With the explicit identification of these fundamental principles, one can avoid stolen concepts. Without them, one cannot avoid stolen concepts. These are all four metaphysical concepts. Logic is an epistemological concern. Epistemological concerns rest on metaphysical premises. If the facts identified by the axioms and the primacy of existence were not obtained, we'd have no need or use for the laws of logic because there would be nothing to know and no one to know it.

"Any reasoning being done about reality rely on logic. And logic makes sense only in the Christian worldview."

I've already demonstrated that this statement is false. Remember, if knowledge, then the objective understanding of metaphysics (the primacy of existence). The notion of God assumes the metaphysical primacy of consciousness.

As for the uniformity of nature, that is a consequence of the 100% correlation between existence and identity, and the law of causality results from the law of identity. If A exists, it must be A, not something other than A. If A acts, it must act as A and not something other than A. Causality is a necessary relationship between an entity and its own actions (not a relationship between events, as Hume thought). So, there is no chance of a disorderly universe. Since these facts do not change over time, they are the necessary preconditions of true propositions enduring over time. However, if one conceives of the universe as analogous to a cartoon as Christianity does, these facts could change if the cartoonist decides. Whatever happens in a cartoon is dependent on the cartoonist's whims.

I recommend you read this blog over at Incinerating Presuppositionalism as the author is the one who made this brilliant analogy: https://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2005/03/cartoon-universe-of-theism.html



Robert Kidd said...

Hi Dawson,

I have one more comment to make. I don't want to spam your blog comments section, but I have stumbled upon something worth commenting on. I have recently started asking everyone who challenges me this question: Are you committed to reason as your only means of knowledge and guide to action? They won't answer. It's hilarious to watch them contort themselves. If they don't answer, I tell them that I will not discuss anything with them. Why would I if they want to reserve the right to use reason part-time and irrationality when they feel like it?

Have a great evening,

Robert Kidd

Bahnsen Burner said...

Don’t worry, Robert, your comments are nowhere near the universe of spam! I appreciate all of your input and all the comments you and anyone else posts on this blog. Have your say!

Things are still extremely busy for me, I’m sorry to say, and I’m frustrated that I don’t have more time to devote to IP and the comments that have been left. Please don’t take my long intervals of silence in the wrong way. This year has turned out to be full of messes that I did not create but need to clean up. It’s far easier to make the mess than it is to fix it!

With regard to the commitment to reason as one’s only means of knowledge, if an individual winces at this principle, what does he propose as an alternative? Reluctance to answer these questions (whether or not reason is one’s only guide or whether he has an alternative) only suggests that whatever position he holds is likely not compatible with a principled commitment to reason. Dreams and visions are not means of acquiring and validating knowledge.

Sometimes I approach it this way: I ask if the fellow if he ever went to school. Naturally he’s going to say yes. Then I ask what subjects he studied in school. We can expect the usual: reading, math, history, literature, biology, art, PE, etc. Then I ask if he ever took a course on reason. Typical responses in my experience range from a casual no to (more commonly) “such a course would not be necessary because we learn reason through study of all these other disciplines” which is a no in disguise. If the latter is the answer, then I ask him to offer a definition of reason. Here the hemming and hawing typically come to the fore, with a lumpy stream of word salad. I point out that yes, all these other disciplines do in fact involve reason and actually require reason, but then ask whether or not that fact alone underscores the importance of mastering reason as a unifying discipline. By this time, they’re usually checked out and looking to change the subject. Along the way expect the whole idea of a course devoted to the study of reason to be denigrated, belittled, ridiculed, etc.

You can lead a horse to water, goes the old adage.

I’m trying to get some time to work on Michael Brown’s next question. I’m not sure when I’ll be able to finish though. Until then…

Regards,
Dawson

Robert Kidd said...

Hey Dawson,
I understand being busy.  I haven't had time to cavort about in the wilds this summer like I usually do, and I'm upset about it.  No camping, biking, fishing, or hiking for me.  Just work. Fortunately, I love my work.   So, I understand, and you don't have to respond to my comments.  I'm happy just to let my thoughts be known.  I have no one and nowhere to talk about this stuff, so this blog is sort of a life preserver for me. 
 
What prompted my question was a response to a YouTube video in which a theist called the hosts of a show and asked, "Why are you atheists?" I decided to try your answer and said, "I'm too honest to be a theist. " As you can imagine, this expression of certainty brought out both sides to challenge me. In the past, I've naively spent time and energy sincerely answering these people only to find out they just wanted to have a bit of sport and argue for the sake of argument.  So, since they were coming to me and my time and consideration were valuable, I decided to set the terms of our engagement.  Boy, oh boy, were people triggered.  They tried everything to evade, but I held them to it and told them it was non-negotiable.  Some just went away; one guy finally answered NO!  One guy said my question was loaded.  How?  I didn't realize how much fun this was going to be.  I don't have to spend hours responding and have a valid reason not to.  As you ask, what is the alternative to reason except some form of non-reason?   I think people were stunned that I wouldn't interact with them.  I made them say the quiet part out loud.  

I have added this question to my own list of "Questions for Theists."

1.  Have you committed yourself to reason as your only means of knowledge and your only guide to action?

2.  What is the difference between the "immaterial" and something merely imaginary?

3. How do you reconcile Christianity's inherent subjectivism with the primacy of existence?  

4. If you are a Christian, how do you explain the duplicitous definition of the concept "create" that Christianity makes necessary?

5. What is your starting point, and by what means are you aware of it?  

6.  What facts of reality make it necessary to form the concept of "God"?

7.  How can one reliably distinguish what you call God from something merely imaginary?  

8. Do "supernatural" things have a nature?

9.  How is the "supernatural" different from the imaginary?  

10.  What evidence is there that anything was ever spoken into existence?  

11.  When we hope for something, that means it has yet to happen.  Since it hasn't happened yet, we can only "see" it by looking inward to our imagination and picturing it in our mind's eye.  How is faith different from belief in what is only imaginary?  

12.  Does "wishing to make it so"?  


I hope your troubles at work are temporary and things will settle down for you. I'm looking forward to your answers to the last two of Brown's questions.
Have a great day,

Robert Kidd

Jason mc said...

I am very much enjoying this series. I still intend to tackle Brown's questions myself. Great stuff in the comments section too. Breath of fresh air compared to the detritus that generally accumulates under Youtube videos.

The sociological function of Brown's questions is worth examining, I think. Admittedly some speculation is needed. But I don't this is too fanciful:

The point is to give Christians a set of converation-starters (and conversations-continuers) to use with their non-believing associates.

These conversations can be opportunities for the Christian to transition to preaching. Which is rude and stupid behaviour, of course, so will invite mocking. This will be perceived as persecution and an opportunity for the demonstration of Christian virtues of humble non-retaliation, or zealous righteous retaliation, and blithe disdain of 'worldly' opinion.

Or the atheist might be the one to get rude and obnoxious first. It happens!

A conversation might break down into mutual slinging of insults - and it may be unclear as to who is at fault, who first deviated from some reasonable standard of civility, the discussion being as it is a meeting of two individuals from different (sub)cultures with differerent discourse norms. Now the witnesses to the argument may have to 'take sides' - here's an opportunity for a demonstration of tribal loyalty.

Or a chat may stay civil! Then the Christian might invite the atheist to delve into the intellectual side of his faith - its literature, bible studies at his church, apologetics debate videos, etc.

The conversation may move to more mundane matters. The Christian may talk about the fulfilling, wholesome life he's no doubt living, to entice the atheist away from the debauchery he's obviously up to, and may have let slip during the course of conversation, giving the Christian an opportunity to pity the fool living in darkness, and be thankful that he's been led to a better, richly abundant life. Later, the Christian can ask his buddies to join him in praying for the contemptible soul.

So, chatting with atheists is way for Christians to reaffirm their Christian identity, internally and expressively. I think that's the primary function. Conversion is secondary or tertiary.

Peace and love!

Jason