Given the title of this post, I thought I’d submit my comments in response to this. In my comments, I had raised the criticism that, according to the illustration which Bolt published, non-Christian philosophies were being grouped together by a trivial, non-essential characteristic, namely “ultimate commitment to human [independence] from God.” In fact, I dispute the claim that non-Christian worldviews could reasonably be characterized as founded upon or motivated by an “ultimate commitment to human [independence] from God.” I gave my reasons for this in my exchange with Chris Bolt, which spilled into subsequent blogs which he posted in response to my comments (see here and here). Chris of course sought to defend the division which his illustration portrays, but seems to have had difficulty answering the points I raised against it.
In his post Bahnsen Burner’s Presuppositional Apologetic for Objectivism, Part 1, Chris made the following comment:
There are only so many ultimate questions available to any worldview with a finite number of “possible” answers.
So to encourage further interaction between ourselves, I proposed a few of my own “ultimate questions” for Chris to consider in a comment which I posted on April 1. The first two questions are:
1) What is your starting point? and
2) What is the proper orientation between the subject of consciousness and its objects?
With respect to my second question, many thinkers (perhaps most?) do not seem to understand what it is asking right off the bat. My question is intended to allow a thinker to reveal his position with regards to metaphysical primacy, i.e., the relationship between consciousness and its objects. In fact, however, this is such a fundamental concern that most thinkers do not even recognize it as an issue, let alone explore it, and pass it over in their haste to pontificate on higher-level matters. So I proposed three additional questions to help Chris and anyone else who might want to consider them:
3) Are you conscious? (yes or no)
4) If you are conscious, are you conscious of any objects? (yes or no)
5) If you are conscious of any objects, what is the relationship between yourself as a subject of consciousness, and any object(s) of which you are conscious?
Now with respect to question 5), I can understand that this may be new territory for many thinkers. But it focuses on the most fundamental issue in all philosophy. The answer which a worldview gives to this question determines whether it is objective or subjective, rational or irrational, suitable for man’s life on earth, or unsuitable. Of course, once one does answer this question when he finally does consider it, it remains to be seen whether or not the views he endorses are consistent with the answer that he gives.
Perhaps I’m just naïve, but I was really hoping that Chris would take a few moments and consider these questions, and post his answers to them. After all, as he himself points out, there are only so many ultimate questions one can ask, and only a finite number of possible answers. My questions are intended to penetrate to the very core of one’s worldview, to the most fundamental level of one’s “presuppositions.” I would think that presuppositionalist apologists would relish questions of this nature. It’s been nearly a month now since I posed my questions to Chris. Perhaps he’s still thinking about them.
by Dawson Bethrick
umm... Ultimate questions
1. Where did everything come from? (stolen concept)
2. What is "our" purpose here? (more stolen concepts)
3. Who determines whats right and wrong and has the force to back it up? (subjective morality)
4. Where do we go when we die? (question begging)
Did I forget anything?
ask a stupid question, odds are you will get a stupid answer.Sorry for the terse comment, however in the real world and not the fantasy realm of mystics, I have just learned I will need to seek new employment in our wonderful economy. the so called ultimate questions seem to often devolve down to, where did we come from, what do we do while we are here, and finally where do we go after this.
What is the answer to question 5?
By even asking the question we can infer how you would have to answer the question implicitly. If the answer was subjective, then there is no metaphysical basis to allow for an epistemology in which any question would be meaningful in the first place. So to even ask what is the answer to question 5 affirms on the part of any one asking that the answer is objective.
Your method of challenging theistic apologetics is to expose the theist's commitment to metaphysical subjectivism. This is a powerful approach because it shows the theist's contradictions for what they are. But I wonder if Rand's argument that 'God' isn't even a valid concept isn't a more devastating approach.
Rand's argument was, in essence, her own version of the argument on non-cognitivism (or the meaningless of religious discourse) based on her theory of concept formation. Francois Tremblay has summarized the argument of non-cognitivism at his site strongatheism.net*. Do you think it is better to show that the god-concept is a meaningless term that literally refers to nothing (as no positive attributes can *ever* be attached to it) first and then get into the argument from the primacy of existence? Or do you think that the fundamental argument against theism is to establish the primacy of existence first?
I ask because it seems to me that the epistemological argument against the god-concept itself might be a better place to start before getting to the metaphysical arguments that deal with the subject-object relationship. Lastly, have you ever heard of any "good" objections to the non-cognitivism argument? I know that any answer must be wrong but do theists have any sophisticated responses to the fact that no positive attributes of their god can ever be established?
* While I find value to strongatheism.net I should point out that Francois Tremblay has abandoned Objectivism and is now a repulsive anarcho-socialist (that's even worse than the anarcho-captialists!). He even embraces the nihilistic environmentalist "voluntary human extinction movement." He has become the embodiment of the radical subjectivist, nihilistic secularist that theists claim that all atheists are out of necessity. Its a shame.
Madmax: I have tried that very approach with a theist. His tactic was to describe god by what he does as if job description equates to metaphysical identity. Its a frustrating line of argumentation to fallow. Further altho the concept maybe flawed and self constricting, we get a scene of the idea, a disembodied conciseness that creates all of existence apart from himself. So altho the idea is nonsense, I cant honestly say I don't know what he theist is talking about.
I really enjoyed your questions, so much that I devoted a separate post to them. See here:
Non-Cognitivism or Metaphysical Primacy: What's the Better Strategy?I would love to discuss this further if you have any additional thoughts.
As for your comments about Francois Tremblay, I agree, and yes it is a shame. He seems to have been plunging from heights I know he's capable of for quite a while now. That said, there's still some good stuff on his his site, though I've not visited it in a long time now.
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