Tuesday, September 06, 2011

Answering Nide's Questions about the Uniformity of Nature

A visitor to my blog named Nide who posts comments under the pseudonym “Hezekiah Ahaz” has asked a series of questions relating to one of my favorite topics, the uniformity of nature.
Nide: “Well, of couse Ayn for you to take measurements you have to assume the nature is uniform. Something you can't account for.”
For this question to have stable meaning, he needs to explain specifically what he means by “account for” in the context of the uniformity of nature. What exactly is he asking here?

Nide: “So you have no choice but to take it for granted. Which assumes faith something your philosophy precludes.”

I can’t say which is the bigger impediment for Nide’s understanding, whether it’s his self-inflicted ignorance of his opponent’s position, or his commitment to mischaracterizing his opponent’s position by proposing simplistic implications which in fact are not suggested by that position. But either way, his lack of understanding is persistent and systemic.
What Objectivism precludes is the primacy of consciousness, confusing imagination for reality, substituting emotion for knowledge, etc. I don’t know how anyone could possibly object to these, but here’s Nide trying to malign a position which is distinguished by steadfast allegiance to the fact that wishing doesn’t make it so.
By ‘faith’, Objectivism means acceptance of ideational content without evidence or contrary to sound reasoning. It does not mean “taking something for granted.” Not even the bible equates faith with taking something for granted. But here’s Nide, acting as though it does.
So just to make this crystal clear: Objectivism rejects accepting ideational content without evidence or contrary to sound reasoning.

When Christians kick against this policy, they tell us about themselves.
The Objectivist view of nature is not void of evidence or contrary to sound reasoning. We perceive and deal with nature directly every moment of our lives. Nide has not shown that the Objectivist view of nature is void of evidence or contrary to sound reasoning. There is nothing about the Objectivist view of nature which is inconsistent with its epistemology, and this is why Nide cannot present a validation of his deliberately slanderous construals. If Nide or anyone else thinks that Objectivism’s view of nature is inconsistent in some way with its epistemology, he needs to show this, not simply say that such an offense exists without showing where such an offense occurs. He needs to do his homework instead of thriving on drive-by charges that only expose his gaping ignorance of what he’s talking about.
In the case of the uniformity of nature, the question that I raise with theists who want to make this matter a topic of debate, is whether the uniformity of nature is something which consciousness establishes in nature on the one hand, or a feature of nature which obtains independent of conscious activity. Theists of course, in particular presuppositionalists for whom the uniformity of nature is an apologetic centerpiece, typically avoid discussing the matter in these terms. (See for instance the questions I have posed to apologist Chris Bolt here back in March 2010, which still to this day have not been addressed.)
The Objectivist view is that nature is uniform independent of conscious activity, that nature’s uniformity is not something which consciousness provides to nature. On this view, nature is inherently uniform, and the uniformity of nature is something we discover and identify, not create and/or alter.
The Christian view is clearly the opposite: that some form of consciousness is needed to provide nature with its uniformity, which can only mean that nature is not inherently uniform, that nature is inherently chaotic, that the default of nature is disorder, that the law of causality is something foreign to nature and must be installed into nature by some volitional action of consciousness. This is the subjective view of the uniformity of nature, the view of nature found in Christianity, and it is in fact a distinguishing characteristic of Christianity since “miracles are at the heart of the Christian position.” (Cornelius Van Til, The Defense of the Faith, p. 27)

Of course, we can imagine that a magic consciousness gives nature its uniformity. But this would be a figment of one's imagination, not a rational identification of reality. If an individual is content with confusing what he imagines for reality, Christianity may very well be a fitting home for him.
Nide asked: “Ayn on what rational basis do you as an ‘atheist’ Justify belief in the inductive principle?”
To the extent that this question has any rational legitimacy (which would require some revision to make that the case), the answer is very simple: on the basis of the axioms, the primacy of existence, and the objective theory of concepts. I’ve stated this before, but so far no theist has been able to bring a lasting challenge to it. All theists can do is try to ridicule it. Meanwhile, they ignore the fact that their worldview attempts to defy the axioms, endorses the primacy of consciousness (e.g., wishing makes it so), and has no theory of concepts to begin with! If there’s a weaker position from which to try to attack Objectivism, I’d like to what it could possibly be.
Nide: “Ayn without begging the question or avoiding a circle can you explain to me why nature is uniform?”
This question is fallacious complex, for attempting to answer it on its own terms invites the fallacy of the stolen concept. To say “why” something is the case implies that it is the result of some cause. But causality is a law of nature. So you can’t affirm a cause prior to nature. This would constitute a stolen concept. I certainly reject the idea that some form of consciousness causes nature to be uniform. This is a blatant absurdity given the mountain of stolen concepts one would have to accept in adopting such a view.
Nature and uniformity are inseparable, like water and its wetness (to use Sye Bruggencate’s own metaphor – it fits, and in this context it finally has some legitimacy as a metaphor). To ask why nature is uniform not only invites stolen concepts (and is therefore fallaciously complex), it also misses the nature of uniformity.
by Dawson Bethrick

506 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 506 of 506
Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...

(previous post deleted due to spelling error)

Paul Baird wrote: "I do wish you wouldn't keep confusing the issue by quoting sources. :-)"

Ha! Good one. Yes, I know -- it's such a bad habit of mine and tends to muddle things up quite a bit, doesn't it?

Although, as far as Trinity is concerned, I'm not sure it's going to make much difference by citing my sources. I might be better off just going ahead and saying, "I learnt me this on this har tee vee."

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

is there absolute truth?

Justin Hall said...

@Ydemoc

Is there absolute truth

This question shows that he sees no difference between his view of the world and the world its self. The map is the territory in that paradigm.

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "is there absolute truth?"

Tell me how you arrived at the concept "absolute."

Tell me how you arrived at the concept "truth."

Would you please define "absolute" as you understand it?

Would you also please define "truth" as you understand it?

Then tell me *exactly* what you mean by the two concepts as you have used them together in the above sentence.

Then, after you get done telling me how you arrived at these concepts and how you define them, tell me how it is that a primacy of consciousness metaphysics can be the foundation for any thing absolute, anything truthful, or anything absolutely truthful.

Then perhaps I will provide you with my answer.

Ydemoc

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide has been asked repeatedly now whether he thinks Jefferson was a fool. He has not answered this question so far as I can tell. He only responds to the question with another question of his own, apparently with no intention of ever addressing the original question.

Then Nide tries to taunt Ydemoc with the following:

"I see you continue to refuse to give an answer. Your silence says it all."

I see that Nide continues to refuse to answer the question posed to him about Jefferson, whether or not he thinks Jefferson is a fool. His silence says it all.

Again, Nide demonstrates a general fact that I've observed: Christians can gripe, pester and wield fallacies, but they cannot eductate, for they have no valuable information to offer on anything. They trade in ignorance and intimidation, not in knowledge and development.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...

I'm still confused about this whole Jefferson business If somebody would be kind enough to repost the question with some context. I would love to give a response.

Ydemoc,

I understand absolute truth to be, for example, the laws of logic. Specifically, non-contradiction.

In others words true lies are impossible that's an absolute truth there is no question or doubt about it.

Do you believe that humans and chimps diverged from a "common" ancestor?

Ydemoc said...

Trinity had asked me: "is there absolute truth?"

I then responded: "Tell me how you arrived at the concept "absolute."

Tell me how you arrived at the concept "truth."

Would you please define "absolute" as you understand it?

Would you also please define "truth" as you understand it?

Then tell me *exactly* what you mean by the two concepts as you have used them together in the above sentence.

Then, after you get done telling me how you arrived at these concepts and how you define them, tell me how it is that a primacy of consciousness metaphysics can be the foundation for anything absolute, anything truthful, or anything absolutely truthful.

Then perhaps I will provide you with my answer."

To which Trinity responded: "I understand absolute truth to be, for example, the laws of logic. Specifically, non-contradiction.

In others words true lies are impossible that's an absolute truth there is no question or doubt about it.

Do you believe that humans and chimps diverged from a "common" ancestor?"

The only part of your response that comes anywhere close to answering the specific questions that I posed to you is your first sentence in your reply -- and even this feeble attempt addresses only one my questions. Remember, I didn't ask for examples; I asked how you arrived at these concepts, how you define them, what you mean when you use them together, and how a primacy of consciousness metaphysics can be a foundation for them.

So please read my questions carefully and try again. When you are finished with this, perhaps I will answer your questions regarding a common ancestor for humans and chimps, as well as your "absolute truth" question.

Good luck.

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

My sense of truth, Ydemoc, is inherent it's part of being created In God's image. God is truth. In fact he is the standard of truth. Truth is not bound my time and space.

Here is from my favorite dictionary as BB puts it.

Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: ab·so·lute
Pronunciation: \ˈab-sə-ˌlüt, ˌab-sə-ˈ\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English absolut, from Anglo-French, from Latin absolutus, from past participle of absolvere to set free, absolve
Date: 14th century
1 a : free from imperfection : perfect b : free or relatively free from mixture : pure c : outright, unmitigated
2 : being, governed by, or characteristic of a ruler or authority completely free from constitutional or other restraint
3 a : standing apart from a normal or usual syntactical relation with other words or sentence elements b of an adjective or possessive pronoun : standing alone without a modified substantive c of a verb : having no object in the particular construction under consideration though normally transitive
4 : having no restriction, exception, or qualification
5 : positive, unquestionable
6 a : independent of arbitrary standards of measurement b : relating to or derived in the simplest manner from the fundamental units of length, mass, and time c : relating to, measured on, or being a temperature scale based on absolute zero ; specifically : kelvin <10° absolute>
7 : fundamental, ultimate
8 : perfectly embodying the nature of a thing
9 : being self-sufficient and free of external references or relationships
10 : being the true distance from an aircraft to the earth's surface
— absolute noun
— ab·so·lute·ness noun

Ydemoc said...

Trinity,

Your attempt at answering *all* my questions has fallen short. So far, your answers are incomplete. Please read my questions again. And be precise when answering, (e.g., if you are going to post a definition from the dictionary, please tell me which entry applies)

It's early. Perhaps you aren't finished yet and you require more time and space to finish answering *all* the questions I posed to you.

Good luck.


Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

I really would appreciate it if you quit wasting time. I really don't have time for your little games. The fence sitters are watching their salvation is at stake. Let's not keep them waiting.


Here are the questions again:


Is there absolute truth?


Do you believe humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor?

Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...

(previous comment deleted due to spelling error)

Trinity,

You wrote: "I really would appreciate it if you quit wasting time. I really don't have time for your little games."

Wasting time? I'm certainly not wasting *my* time. Nor am I playing games. I'm thinking and writing. What would make you assert such things?

You wrote: "The fence sitters are watching their salvation is at stake. Let's not keep them waiting."

This comes across as very insincere. Are you being insincere? Do you think your god would be happy with you making light of such a situation?

You wrote: "Is there absolute truth?
Do you believe humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor?"

I'll go half way with you and answer one of your questions. But I will not address your "absolute truth" question until you answer the questions I posed to you.

Did you even try answering them? Even on your own? Did you even think about them?

Anyway, to answer your question: "Do you believe humans and chimps evolved from a common ancestor?"...

My answer to you is this: Can you give me some valid reason (i.e., evidence, e.g., genetic, archeological... anything scientific) as to why I should ignore the overwhelming evidence that exists in favor of humans and chimps evolving from a common ancestor?


Ydemoc

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide: “I'm still confused about this whole Jefferson business If somebody would be kind enough to repost the question with some context. I would love to give a response.”

Yes, I see that confusion is hard for you to outrun. But let me help a little bit. If you recall, throughout this thread you’ve recited a few bible verses about fools or calling people fools. You seem to think that non-Christians are fools. Indeed, internet apologists seem conspicuously delighted every time they get a chance to call a non-Christian a fool, and in fact work hard at manufacturing such opportunities, such as when they mischaracterize an opponent’s position for the sake of finding it “absurd.”

Then you raised the question as to whether or not Ydemoc would believe the bible if it didn’t have any miracles in it. At this point, when Ydemoc was answering you, he pointed out that Thomas Jefferson had put together a version of the four gospels that was shorn of all supernatural aspects and certain other features that Jefferson did not think were authentic. Clearly Jefferson was not a Christian. So Ydemoc asked you if you thought Jefferson was a fool. Either you do, or you don’t. I’m inclined to suppose that you do think Jefferson was a fool, since you seem to think that non-Christians are inherently foolish to begin with given their non-belief in the Christian god, and also since you seem to enjoy generalizing about non-Christians in a most simplistic manner.

But I’d like to hear it from the horse’s mouth. So what do you think? Do you think Jefferson was a fool, or not?

Nide: “I understand absolute truth to be, for example, the laws of logic. Specifically, non-contradiction.”

If the laws of logic are absolute, they can’t be based on the Christian god’s thinking, whether you style them as a “reflection,”
"image," "echo," or however Christians want to characterize them. In fact, just by affirming the laws of logic and making use of them in your cognition, you’re borrowing from a non-Christian worldview. Find where Jesus spoke of the laws of logic, taught them to his disciples, and implored thinkers to adhere to them. Find it.

Meanwhile, kindly explain how the laws of logic, “specifically, non-contradiction,” can have any fundamental association with a being that would consist of contradictions on so many levels if it really existed. I’ve raised this objection before, citing for instance the trinity (the “3-is-1” god of Christianity) and the dichotomous nature of Christ (“fully God, fully man”) as examples of what I have in mind, and you’ve never addressed it. That doesn’t surprise me, but it bears noting again given its crucial implications for the presuppositionalist apologetic program.

Regards,
Dawson

Justin Hall said...

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.


Thomas Jefferson

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

This evidence that favors humans and chimps evolving from a common ancestor is it conclusive?

Dawson,

Thank you for your kindness. I would say Jefferson was delusional.


You asked: "Find where Jesus spoke of the laws of logic, taught them to his disciples, and implored thinkers to adhere to them. Find it."

1. God is logic.
2. Jesus taught his diciples about God.
C. Jesus taught his diciples about Logic.

Ok, on to your other errors.


It's interesting that you keep projecting human experience unto God. The charges you keep making about the trinity and christ. There only a contradiction in your head.


Greetings

Justin Hall said...

1. God is logic.

god is an entity, logic is a method. Think you are equivocating here. God could be logical but unless he is a method he can not be logic.

Ydemoc said...

Justin, may I also add a few more...

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible." Jefferson

Now, for fun, let's compare Jefferson's quotes to one of Trinity's:

"Well, criminals are never trully [sic] sorry. If the judge let them go.[sic] They would go back and commit crimes. A "Christian" that "loves" God because of hell is still a criminal." (Posted by Trinity under the alias "Hezekiah," on September 07, 2011 5:48 PM)

Fun, indeed!

Ydemoc

Justin Hall said...

@Ydenmoc


Thanks for the Adam's quot, I was unaware of that one. As far as Nide, I still want to know what grimlins have to do with anything. He also seems to think that how I deal with morality is somehow important to his argument, that is if he had one. Purely on a side note, I am currently trying to formulate a synthesis of game theory ethics with objectivist rational self interest. I am calling it Promethics, as in farsighted action. Some day I hope to have a proper syllogism hammered out but other matters take priority, like earning a living.

Ydemoc said...

Justin,

You wrote: "Thanks for the Adam's quot, I was unaware of that one."

You're welcome. I'm signing off now; got to get some sleep.

More tomorrow.

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

It's pretty amazing that you keep wasting time with your little quirks and antics. Instead of answering questions.


Justin,


Why should you earn a living?

Justin Hall said...

"Why should you earn a living?"

Still playing the presup game I see, and pray tell how will you smuggle god in if I fail to answer this question to your satisfaction?

Anyway, moral propositions can be broken down to if I want X and the conditions are Y then I must do Z. The X variable at first glance would appear to be purely a inter subjective preference, but the Y variable are the external objective facts. In this case I have a desire to stay alive and well off hardwired into my neurology. Basically because the ones who did before me had more kids then those who didn't. I also have a complex and well developed conceptual framework that allows me to forecast the consequences of my actions. Thus If I want to survive I must keep food in my belly, clothes on my body, and roof over my head. Simple enough, note, no belief in god required to figure this out nor is it implied.

Now some ways back I asked you a question about how as a Christian I should treat new knowledge. You choose to answer it with a statement that you believe in grimlins, could you expand on that. Additionally Dawson and myself have asked you about the metaphysical relationship between the objects of consciousness and the subject of consciousness. As far as I can reason the only way god can exist is for the relationship to be subjective, your thoughts? And if it is subjective how do we get around the destruction of the law of identity that would result thus rendering reason baseless? Again your thoughts?

Paul Baird said...

Reading the comments is like watching grown ups trying to explain the sunrise to a toddler.

I admire your patience.

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide: “I would say Jefferson was delusional.”

Again you seem reluctant to answer the question that has been posed to you. You’re on record now stating that you think Jefferson was delusional. However, the question that was posed to you was whether or not you think Jefferson was a *fool*. Care to try again?

I asked: "Find where Jesus spoke of the laws of logic, taught them to his disciples, and implored thinkers to adhere to them. Find it."

Nide responded: “1. God is logic.”

This is not a biblical position. The bible nowhere equates its god with logic, as you are doing here. You are making up your own gospel as you go. The bible condemns this behavior as a form of sin.

It also makes no sense, and seems to be affirmed in haste and desperation. The Christian god is supposed to be a personal being, an entity possessing consciousness – a will, the ability to judge, the ability to experience emotion, to throw temper tantrums, to love and hate, to father a child, etc. By contrast, the laws of logic are impersonal, non-conscious, lacking the ability to experience emotions, throw temper tantrums, love, hate, father a child, etc. So whatever it is you’re calling logic, it’s not logic. Find any standard logic text which makes the equation you do, or even suggests that logic is some kind of personal agent, having a will of its own, experiencing emotions, loving, hating, fathering children, etc., in the sense that the bible characterizes its god. You won’t find one.

So not only is your first claim unbiblical, it suggests you haven’t given any of this any serious thought at all.

[Continued...]

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide: “C. Jesus taught his diciples about Logic.”

Not that I can see. I’ve scoured the NT, including the gospel narratives. I nowhere find Jesus educating people on the laws of logic, explaining how to construct proper inferences, avoid fallacies, the square of opposition, Venn diagrams, etc. These were aspects of Greek philosophy, and the NT makes it crystal clear that Greek philosophy of the day was anathema to Christian doctrine. This has not prevented Christians since then from trying to hijack the philosophical achievements of the Greeks which their Christian contemporaries condemned so vehemently. But that’s what Christianity does: it seeks to hijack and assimilate the achievements of other cultures and call them its own.

Nide: “It's interesting that you keep projecting human experience unto God. The charges you keep making about the trinity and christ. There only a contradiction in your head.”

No, they’re not in my head, for I did not originate the doctrines of the trinity or Christ. These are doctrines found in orthodox Christianity. That is where the contradictions are to be found – in Christianity’s doctrines. I simply identify them and point them out for others to see. I'm hardly the first.

It’s interesting that you try to make this my problem, when in fact it’s a problem that you want people to swallow hook, line and sinker every time you tell someone to repent and turn to Christ. It’s clear that Christian doctrine cannot bear scrutiny, which is why its preferred mode of acceptance is by faith. A position which is rational is not one that is accepted on faith. But then again, even the bible nowhere makes the claim that Christianity is rational. Rationality was never a concern for any of its authors.

It’s also interesting that you never try to show that either the doctrine of the trinity or the doctrine of Christ is coherent and free of contradiction. I recall asking you early on whether or not you fully understood the doctrine of the trinity. (See my 15 July comment on this blog.) You never did answer it. If you don’t fully understand the doctrine of the trinity, then you have no credible basis to tell me that it’s entirely free of contradiction. If you do fully understand the doctrine of the trinity, it would be a first in all of Christendom, and you are invited to educate not only me, but the whole world, including millions of confused Christians.

Regards,
Dawson

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide asked: "Why should you earn a living?"

That's easy: Because there's no heavenly father taking care of our needs. So we're on our own. We have to take care of our own needs by ourselves.

Regards,
Dawson

Justin Hall said...

@Anyone who knows the bible well

Where in the bible does it say there are gremlins? And does this section of the bible discuss how a person should treat newly acquired information?

Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...

(previous comment deleted due to spelling error)

Trinity wrote: "This evidence that favors humans and chimps evolving from a common ancestor is it conclusive?"

This is too much! A Christian asking if evidence is conclusive!?! As Cipher recently commented over on DebunkingChristianity, "Oh, good lord. I've said it before - many, many times - and I'll say it again: fundies have no sense of irony."

Look, Trinity, I know you don't want it to be true. I know that your storybook has you in a pickle whenever you try to reconcile what you believe with what science says. But like I asked you in a previous comment, you should also ask yourself this:

What valid reason (i.e., evidence, e.g., genetic, archeological, anthropological... anything scientific) do I, Trinity, have for ignoring the overwhelming evidence that exists in favor of humans and chimps evolving from a common ancestor?

Ask yourself this question. And you will probably notice that what precludes you from accepting scientific facts is your belief in your storybook. Your storybook has you boxed in.

As for what scientists say regarding evidence for common descent for chimps and humans:

"Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

"It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.
******************

I'm not going to get into a long discussion about the facts of evolution with you. All the evidence is available for you to look at on your own if you would just put down your storybook and peek your head out from the box that you are keeping yourself in.

Ydemoc

Justin Hall said...

@Ydemoc

He can not even conceive that he could be wrong. He will never critically self examine his own beliefs, altho I would love to be "wrong" on this Nide:)

Ydemoc said...

Justin,

Yep. His storybook, and his "confessional investment" in it, has him all boxed in.

Ydemoc

Justin Hall said...

@Ydemoc

I don't begrudge Nide for thinking he is correct, after all so do we. It is his complete unwillingness to vet his beliefs in the exacting scrutiny of reason while all the while claiming to "account for" that very same reason that is so galling. Compound this with a strategy that does not defend his position but seeks to torpedo his opponents as if that would confer automatic victory to him. Just as he cant fathom that he could be wrong it never crosses his mind that everyone here is wrong. As long as he continues to believe that "truth" is transcendent and true divorced of any context, in other words that platonic nonsense I doubt he will change. I see it as a innate tendency of people to personify everything. After all we do things for a reason why not everything else. The concept that the universe just is, a brute uncaring fact of existence that I think scares the hell out of them. Furthermore sense knowledge is not automatic and must be earned and is fallible all the same is something they bitterly resent. Sometimes I just want to say oh grow up and stop being a kid already...

Anonymous said...

Justin said: " Just as he cant fathom that he could be wrong it never crosses his mind that everyone here is wrong."


Justin I agree everyone here is wrong it, actually, crossed my mind a long time ago.


Ydemoc,

You ever going to get around to answering questions or you going to keep up with your buffoonery?



Dawson,

It's interesting that instead of dealing with my argument you resort to threats and misrepresentation. I know what I say is on record. What's your point quit wasting time already?


Justin is time abstract?

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide wrote: “Dawson, It's interesting that instead of dealing with my argument you resort to threats and misrepresentation. I know what I say is on record. What's your point quit wasting time already?”

What “argument” of yours are you talking about? If you’re talking about your “argument” for Jesus teaching logic in the gospel narratives, I dealt with it, and decisively as well. Let me review: I pointed out that your first premise (“God is logic”) is not even biblical. You’ve nowhere cited one passage from any of the 66 books of the bible to secure this premise as a legitimately biblical position. Just in pointing this out, I’ve shown how your argument is not authentically Christian in nature. I also pointed out how silly it is, given the fact that your god is characterized as a personal, conscious being, with a will (a mighty, universe-creating, reality-revising will at that), emotions, etc., while the laws of logic are impersonal – i.e., non-conscious – in nature. I challenged you to find one standard text on logic which supports your first premise, and not surprisingly you’ve not done this.

So your first premise fails not only because it’s unbiblical, but also because it attempts to equate something characterized as a personal being with something that is clearly not personal in nature. I realize that your god, being ultimately a figment of your imagination, is, like Gumby, imminently bendable. But it’s not that bendable: once you try to integrate your god-belief with reality, your god-belief breaks down immediately.

I also challenged your conclusion (“C. Jesus taught his disciples about Logic”) by pointing out that there’s no discourse recorded in any of the gospel narratives or anywhere else in the NT for that matter, which depicts Jesus educating his listeners on constructing valid inferences, Venn diagrams, checking for fallacies, the square of opposition, etc., which is what he would need to have done if your claim that “Jesus taught his disciples about Logic” had any weight to it. In connection with this, I also pointed out that the NT makes it clear that the philosophy of the Greeks was condemned by early Christians as “worldly wisdom,” and rightly so: reason is anathema to faith, for reason enables a man to think for himself, while faith debilitates man’s mind by coercing him to surrender it to the first passer-by who claims to have mystical “knowledge” that should be believed on his mere say so. (Nide, you’re a fantastic example of this yourself!)

So not only did I deal with your argument by showing its first premise to be faulty beyond repair, I also showed how your conclusion is utterly baseless. I did not accomplish this refutation of your argument by means of “threats and misrepresentations,” as you allege without providing evidence, but by examining the content of what you have stated and showing precisely where it is contrary to fact. I do realize that you consider measuring one’s claims against the facts as “wasting time,” but my point was to expose the flaws of your “argument,” whose premises you haven’t even attempted to defend.

If you think I was misrepresenting something you’ve stated, please explain. Develop your thought for once. Don’t just make the accusation and leave it at that. Provide some substance to support your claim. Otherwise, as has been typical of your manner, you make claims and completely neglect the need to support them. That’s not my problem, it’s yours entirely.

Regards,
Dawson

Ydemoc said...

Trinity,

I've answered your question concerning common ancestry for chimps and humans. Draw an inference from what I posted (if you read it at all).

In case you skipped it, here it is again -- what scientists say regarding evidence for common descent for chimps and humans:

"Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

"It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.
************

Read up on it. Why, there's even a Christian rebuttal on http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/, about halfway down, on the right-hand side of the page.

Of course, there's also a response to this rebuttal, but take a look. Acquaint yourself with a little science, like we all have with your storybook.

I will not answer your question on "absolute truth" until you fully answer all my questions concerning your use of these concepts.

Ydemoc

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide asked: "Justin is time abstract?"

How does the bible answer this question, Nide?

Please, educate us.

Cite book, chapter and verse. Show us where the Christian storybook informs its readers on such matters.

Regards,
Dawson

Justin Hall said...

@Hezekiah

I always get the impression you do not differentiate between a concept and its referent. Obviously the concept time is abstract. The inter subjective experience of time passing however is not. That is an ontologically real neurological process. And then again you could be asking what is the actual physical process of time. There are several explanations all of which might be wrong, I am interested in what is referred to as block time, look it up if you are curious. And Dawson's question about biblical sources is a good one. How does your world view "account for" this? Also I note you just keep throwing out these questions that do not advance the discussion at all. I also note that you agree we could all be wrong, that would include you of course. So the question is Nide, if you could be wrong how to you validate your knowledge? I have made sincere effects to answer your questions for the most part yet you will not even acknowledge my question about how as a Christian I should treat information that contradicts the Christian world view. I strongly suspect you avoid this question like the plague because you know the doctrinal answer will show you to be the closed minded fool that Dawson, Ydemoc, others and myself know you to be. Dogmatic doctrines have no error correction systems that is why I don't take them seriously anymore then I would use a compiler without a system for reporting bugs in the code. Got to love gcc:)

So ever going to explain that gremlins answer, speaking of time I have lots of it to wait for your answer and I wont forget, cheers...

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

Here is a interesting little qoute from my Human origins text book:

"science is a self-correcting approach to knowledge acquisition. Scientists develop new hypotheses as new findings are made. Scientists use these hypotheses to build theories. And like the hypotheses that underlie them, theories can be modified or even replaced by better theories, depending on findings made through meticulous observation. Over time, as observations and hypotheses and theories are tested and subjected to the test of time, science revises it's own errors. If a theory proves absolutely true, it becomes a scientific law. Among the few scientific laws, the well-known ones are the laws of gravity, thermodynamics, and motion. But scientific truth seldom gets finalized into law. Rather, truth is continously developed-new facts are discovered and new understandings about natural phenomena are made."(Clark Spencer Larsen, Essentials of Physical Anthropology: Discovering our origins, pg.15)


Ydemoc if scientist found evidence of a talking donkey would you accept it?

Are there varying degrees of truth or is a thing true or false?


What's the difference between "truth" and absolute truth?


I would appreciate it if you would not waste time with your quirks and antics. and simply answer the questions the fence-sitters are waiting.

Justin Hall said...

@Hezekaih

Right now there is evidence from a team at CERN in Europe that nuetrinos move faster than light. If true it will over turn a century of physics. This is on par with a taking donkey as far as extraordinary claims go. However as incredible as it may be if the evidence pans out then yes we will have to accept that somethings move faster then light. So speaking only for myself, if evidence was found that passed the rigors of science that at least one donkey could talk, then yes I would have to accept it. Reality is the final court of appeal, not our expectations or imaginations.

So how about those gremlins?

Justin Hall said...

Hezekiah said.....


"Are there varying degrees of truth or is a thing true or false?"

for a few hundred years Newtons theory of gravity was the final word in the matter. Then Einstein came along and disproved it and supplanted it with special and general relativity. However Newtons equations were still good enough for the Apollo team to put Neil Armstrong on the moon, and yet Newtons description of gravity is wrong. In fact all models are likely wrong, some like Newtons are useful under certain conditions. But in absolute terms he is still wrong, so is Einstein in all likelihood. Nide there is an absolute reality, but our knowledge of it is anything but perfect, I suggest you learn to deal with this.

Justin Hall said...

oh and Hezekiah, Nide, whatever

How should I as a hypothetical Christian deal with potential new knowledge that contradicts Christian dogma and does your answer involve gremlins in anyway?

Ydemoc said...

Trinity quoted a passage from an anthropology textbook which summarized the basics of the scientific approach. And I must say, it's good to see Trinity peeking out from his box.

In any event, here is the question Trinity asked: "Ydemoc if scientist found evidence of a talking donkey would you accept it?"

If there was enough evidence for a talking donkey, why wouldn't I accept it? Do you think I would willfully ignore scientific evidence if they found that donkey's could not only talk, but also carry on meaningful conversations as it says the donkey does in bible? Do you think that I would be so invested in some storybook that I would try to discredit the overwhelming evidence for a talking donkey because it doesn't quite fit with what my storybook teaches?

Consider parrots: I do not ignore the fact that parrots can talk. That is part of their nature.

I think I can safely say, though, that if evidence were ever discovered that donkeys could carry on meaningful conversations, that would defeat the whole purpose of this and other such tales in your storybook! Don't you see why?

Allow me to explain: It is because donkey's *do not* talk; snakes *do not* talk; people *do not* rise from the dead; the moon and sun *do not* stand still in the sky nor go where humans tell them to; bodies *do not* pop out of graves and walk about town; virgins *do not* give birth without insemination; divining rods *are not* the mechanism by which livestock are spotted or striped; people *do not* walk through parted seas without getting hopelessly stuck in mud; men *do not* live after three days inside whales; people *do not* turn into pillars of salt; water *does not* turn into wine, etc. -- it is because these sorts of events are so beyond natural or, if you prefer, "miraculous" that they are included in your storybook in the first place. (and this applies whether or not the authors of the storybook wrote about such events out of ignorance or knew better and recorded them to serve their theological agenda).

You see, if scientists found that donkeys could talk and carry on meaningful conversations, this would put another nail in the coffin of theism (and that's putting it lightly). For then it would mean there were *natural* explanations for talking donkeys. Such creatures would no longer be considered "miraculous," but merely another natural event in the natural world.

But your god is supposed to be "supernatural," transcending the natural world, capable of feats that defy explanation. If there were an explanation for a talking donkey, why posit something supernatural. In other words, if it's natural, why is the notion of a god needed at all?

No wonder talking parrots aren't peddled as "miracles" in your storybook.

I will also note, as I have before, that not one so-called "miracle" in the bible is futuristic in nature. That is to say, we *do not* read of anyone treating rabies with a vaccine, nor harnessing electricity, nor developing nuclear energy.

There is nothing said of air conditioning, nor the automobile, nor artificial light. We read nowhere of any "miracles" having to do with rocket science, heart transplants, television, or telephones. Every "miracle" recorded in the bible is delimited by what knowledge was available to these primitive people at that time.

Just like I said before, the reason why we don't read of Jesus inventing air conditioning is because: Where would he plug it in?

Now, will you venture out of your box a little farther? Or will you close the lid, fearful of what else you might find? If you choose to slink back in, when closing the lid, try not to let it hit you too hard in the ol' noggin.

Ydemoc

Justin Hall said...

@Ydemoc


Allow me to explain: It is because donkey's *do not* talk; snakes *do not* talk; people *do not* rise from the dead; the moon and sun *do not* stand still in the sky nor go where humans tell them to; bodies *do not* pop out of graves and walk about town; virgins *do not* give birth without insemination; divining rods *are not* the mechanism by which livestock are spotted or striped; people *do not* walk through parted seas without getting hopelessly stuck in mud; men *do not* live after three days inside whales; people *do not* turn into pillars of salt; water *does not* turn into wine, etc. -- it is because these sorts of events are so beyond natural or, if you prefer, "miraculous" that they are included in your storybook in the first place. (and this applies whether or not the authors of the storybook wrote about such events out of ignorance or knew better and recorded them to serve their theological agenda).


Well put sir, well put.

Do you think he will ever answer my question about how to deal with new knowledge, I kind of doubt it.

Ydemoc said...

Justin,

You wrote: "Well put sir, well put."

Thanks a lot, Justin -- I appreciate it. And, in turn, I thank Dawson. He's the one that kicked open the door for me for a lot of these thoughts.

One thing I forgot to put in was "wishful thinking," there at the end, along with "ignorance" and "theological agenda." But your words are reassuring that my neglect in doing so didn't undermine the point I was making.

I'm sure Trinity will forgive me, since he often "forgets" to use commas and periods. And even when he does, he often uses them in the wrong places.

You wrote: "Do you think he will ever answer my question about how to deal with new knowledge, I kind of doubt it."

I'm with you -- I don't think he will either. He hasn't answered my questions regarding "absolute truth." And even if he does answer your question, the answer he gives might not make any sense, even if he includes commas a periods.

Ydemoc

Justin Hall said...

@Ydemoc

"I'm sure Trinity will forgive me, since he often "forgets" to use commas and periods. And even when he does, he often uses them in the wrong places. "

I will be forgiving of his punctuation errors, as you can see I make a fair amount of them myself. I don't know if their is any causation here but there sure is a correlation. Programmers tend to but not always make lousy writers:)

Anonymous said...

Justin,

I don't accept Science's definition of truth. A thing is either true or false. I don't accept in betweens. I don't accept the "fact" that I evolved from a monkey. If you read the qoute I provided Scientists admit that they may be in error. Fine if you want to believe in evolution go right ahead. Just don't call it a truth.


Ok, on to gremlins.

Can you define a gremlin and maybe give a description of it.


Dawson,

In the past I stated the God is logic. He''s logical. Right after I gave an explanation of what I meant. You made the claim that I am equating God with Logic. Well, your wrong again. God is logic and logic is God don't mean the same thing. I pointed this out already so why did you ignore my previous comments so you could make room for your parodies?

So, yea, the problem is yours and all these little contradictions you claim to be only exist in your mind.

You ever check to see if your sane?


The two natures of Christ can you explain why they are a contradiction to you and is a nature spatial?

Ydemoc said...

Justin,

I wrote: "I'm sure Trinity will forgive me, since he often "forgets" to use commas and periods. And even when he does, he often uses them in the wrong places. "

You wrote: "I will be forgiving of his punctuation errors, as you can see I make a fair amount of them myself. I don't know if their is any causation here but there sure is a correlation. Programmers tend to but not always make lousy writers:)"

You and I both make errors, but we don't claim to have a all-knowing, super-duper deity dwelling within us.

And I don't hold it against Trinity too much. But I'm not sure his professor in his ethics class will be quite as lenient.

Ydemoc

Bahnsen Burner said...

Justin to Nide: “I always get the impression you do not differentiate between a concept and its referent.”

Distinctions like this are lost on the vast majority of Christians, and their lack of understanding of this distinction is central to many of their apologetic gambits. They habitually treat the epistemological as though it were metaphysical. This can be observed in the topic of logic when presuppositionalists ask such questions as whether or not contradictions could exist prior to humanity if logic is “contingent” on “finite minds” like human minds. What is ignored, and likely not at all understood, is the fact that contradictions do not exist in reality in the first place, but are epistemological errors, errors in identification, and identification is an epistemological process. Reality is what it is independent of consciousness, whether the actions of consciousness result in accurate identifications, or in errors. The theist’s failure to distinguish between a concept and its referents, then, can be traced back to the failure of his worldview to address the issue of metaphysical primacy. Since the theist does not understand the proper relationship between consciousness and its objects, he’s not going to grasp the distinction between concept and referent. His epistemological errors mirror the errors in his metaphysics.

Justin: “And Dawson's question about biblical sources is a good one. How does your world view ‘account for’ this?”

Even before Nide can get around to explaining how the biblical worldview (which he seems willing to revise at will by inserting his own doctrines, cf. “God is logic”), I’d just like to see how the bible conceives of time to begin with. What is time, according to Christianity? Only after telling us what the Christian view of time is, can the Christian then embark on presenting his “account for” its conception of time.

[Continued...]

Bahnsen Burner said...

Justin: “Also I note you just keep throwing out these questions that do not advance the discussion at all.”

This is a diversionary tactic that Nide relies on with amazing frequency. He cannot answer the questions directed to him and his worldview, so he continually tries to change the subject and shift the burden at the same time. What he does not want to admit is the fact that the burden is on him. It is he who comes over here to my blog to broadcast his claims and announce his accusations. Yet he never comes through when it comes to substantiating either. We are not going over to his blog and telling him to believe what we hold to be true. He’s over here telling us to believe his faith-based beliefs. So the burden is on him. But he never meets it, and has no intention of meeting it. Indeed, he can’t.

Justin: “I also note that you agree we could all be wrong, that would include you of course. So the question is Nide, if you could be wrong how to you validate your knowledge?”

If Nide says that he could be wrong about his god-beliefs, don’t expect this to be a sincere admission. At root the dishonesty required of him by his worldview will not allow him to consider such possibilities sincerely. There is little to nothing in biblical Christianity to mitigate the pain of conscience that such an admission will create in the mind of the bible-believer. It is like expecting a non-mariner to set himself adrift on a raft in the middle of the Pacific Ocean: without the pretense of certainty in all things biblical, the bible-believer has no compass, no means of navigation, no mobility to enable him to keep the overwhelming weight of a worldview choking with contradictions from imploding on itself and suffocating his faked sense of spirit in the process. This is the purpose of faith as an act of will – to suspend the disbelief that is always knocking on the bible-believer’s door by deliberately employing a system of defensive measures, mostly in his own mind and provided by the bible itself, to keep his own doubts in check, to squelch inquiry into areas sealed off as taboo, and to ignore inconsistencies between various confessional affirmations.

Regards,
Dawson

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide: “In the past I stated the God is logic.”

Yes, you have stated this. Are you going to recant?

Nide: “He''s logical.”

Yes, you’ve stated this before, but you’ve ignored further inquiry into this claim. I quote from my 11 Sept. comment:

Tell us, Nide, is it ever “logical” to sacrifice the ideal for the sake of the non-ideal? Is it logical to expect the non-ideal to accept the sacrifice of the ideal?

Is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures? Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem? Is it logical to make a wager with the devil, as we find in the book of Job? Is it logical to promise that people will get what they ask for if they ask in Jesus’ name, when in fact such a promise is never kept? I could go on, but you get the point. Logic is as compatible with the Christian worldview bleach is delicious on cornflakes.


I don’t believe you’ve addressed these questions, Nide. And yet you still want me to accept your claim that your god is logical?

Nide: “Right after I gave an explanation of what I meant.”

I’ve been trying to read your comments carefully, Nide, but in case I missed what you have in mind, can you please re-post what you consider “an explanation” of what you mean by your claim “God is logic”? I’d be happy to review it.

Nide: “You made the claim that I am equating God with Logic.”

When you write “God is logic,” how else am I supposed to interpret your position? Since I have no idea what this could mean apart from an identity statement, and since I don’t recall seeing any explanation which qualifies this in some way, I have little choice but to take you literally. It is your worldview, and I expect that you can articulate it.

Nide: “Well, your wrong again.”

Then you need to use more care in explain your position. What exactly do you mean by the statement “God is logic”? How is what you mean by this statement authentically biblical?

Nide: “God is logic and logic is God don't mean the same thing.”

Please articulate what you think the difference is.

Nide: “I pointed this out already so why did you ignore my previous comments so you could make room for your parodies?”

Again, I may be wrong to assume that you can speak for your worldview clearly, but since we are in a discussion together, there really is no alternative but to go by your own words. If you want to restate your position in order to clarify what you mean, you have this option. If you mean something other than what the words which you choose plainly mean, then you need to rethink how you express yourself. I’ve demonstrated that I am a patient and understanding thinker. So if you now feel the need to make distinctions, I won’t stop you.

Nide: “So, yea, the problem is yours and all these little contradictions you claim to be only exist in your mind.”

I’ve already addressed this. The contradictions are in the Christian doctrines, as I’ve explained. They have nothing to do with my mind, for Christian doctrine predates me by nearly two millennia.

Nide: “The two natures of Christ can you explain why they are a contradiction to you and is a nature spatial?”

See the following:

Christianity as the Worship of Self-Contradiction

Christ Jesus: Still a Jumble of Contradictions

Unless you can show that there’s no contradiction in the doctrine of Christ, I will stand by my stated position.

Regards,
Dawson

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "I don't accept Science's definition of truth."

Notwithstanding the fact that I didn't see a "definition of truth" in the textbook you quoted, but merely a summary of what methods scientists use to arrive at truth, I don't think your declaration comes as any surprise to any rational thinking person on this board.

Furthermore, your protests against science and it's "definition of truth" come across as quite dishonest, given that a large portion of your life depends upon scientists finding "truths."

For example, you probably go to a doctor, get vaccinated, or take medicine when you're sick. You've also probably flown on a plane, driven in a car, or taken a ride on a train. Perhaps you've lit a match, flipped on a light switch, or checked the weather. You take full advantage of all that the minds of science have produced, yet are so quick to jettison their definition of truth.

If scientists are so wrong, how is that much of your life depends upon them being so right?

You wrote: "A thing is either true or false."

Is a rock true or false?

Trinity wrote: "I don't accept in betweens."

"In-betweens" of what? You mean you don't accept such things like, in baseball, a runner can be in-between first and second base?"

Trinity wrote: "I don't accept the "fact" that I evolved from a monkey."

Yes. Some facts are hard to swallow (especially when you don't have facts to swallow in the first place -- i.e., monkeys? Who told you this?), and especially when a storybook and a "confessional investment" in it, causes you to not want such facts to be so. But please, do tell us what evidence you find objectionable with regard to man and chimps descending from a common ancestor? And why would you object to this truth, but, evidently, not to other scientific truths. Or perhaps, given your declaration of not accepting science's definition of truth, you reject all scientific truths.

Trinity wrote: "If you read the qoute I provided Scientists admit that they may be in error."

And how do you suppose humans in general and scientists in particular, came to the have a understanding of the concept "error?"

Trinity wrote: "Fine if you want to believe in evolution go right ahead."

This is a revealing statement. It indicates a most fundamental flaw at the base of your worldview: That flaw is that your standard of truth has to do with belief.

Trinity wrote: "Just don't call it a truth."

Why not? You already consider me and others on this board as "criminals" -- and for much lesser offenses. Are you going to report me to someone if I do call evolution "truth?" Oh, that's right -- we live in America, a product of the Enlightenment, when men began using their minds again after years of living in the darkness; a time when superstitious beliefs were put on the back burner and facts of reality took priority. Is it any wonder that that's when the fruits of scientific "truths" progressed exponentially? A time when men of reason wrote a document which protects my right to think what I want -- though I'm sure you wish this weren't the case. But wishing won't make it so.

Additionally, why would you be so opposed to scientists who "admit that they may be in error?" It seems to me you should rejoice over such an admission, for that means that everything they have told us about reality is wrong. And if they are wrong, you can just fill that vacuum with your god.

Finally, your god supposedly preordains and controls everything that comes to pass. This would have to include all evidence pointing to the truth of evolution, would it not? In your view, isn't evolution, and people "believing in it," all just a part of your god's grand scheme?

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

BB,

Said: "We are not going over to his blog and telling him to believe what we hold to be true. He’s over here telling us to believe his faith-based beliefs. So the burden is on him. But he never meets it, and has no intention of meeting it. Indeed, he can’t.


Actually, this is another case of you ignoring my past comments. What I have said is you need to repent from the delusion your in. I am not telling you to believe in anything because you already do. You, Ydemoc, And Justin all believe in the Christian God. Your merely in self-denial.


Does anything outside of time exist?

I read the two links you provided. So, yea, the contradictions are only in your head. As you admitted contradictions don't exist in reality.

Jesus knew who he was. The real question is are you saying that God couldn't enter into his creation and take on a human body if so why not?

Last thing before I deal with Ydemocs buffoonery.

Have you checked to see if your sane?

Ydemoc,

If a scientist told you that you evolved from a flying whale would you believe him?



Maybe you were asleep "behind the wheel" but if you notice Scientists admit they could be wrong about evolution. I say it's a belief not a truth.


You asked:And how do you suppose humans in general and scientists in particular, came to the have a understanding of the concept "error?"


I answered this already but here it is again. God is truth. We were created in his Image. Therefore we have a sense of truth. That's why we can make judgements about truth and error.


You asked me about a rocks truth value have you checked to see if your sane?


It's not a supposition or scheme. It's a reality. God predetermined everything. Even the pair of socks you wore yesterday.




blessings

Bahnsen Burner said...

I wrote: "We are not going over to his blog and telling him to believe what we hold to be true. He’s over here telling us to believe his faith-based beliefs. So the burden is on him. But he never meets it, and has no intention of meeting it. Indeed, he can’t.”

Nide: “Actually, this is another case of you ignoring my past comments.”

Au contraire. I’ve been paying close attention to your comments. Your statements were just as absurd three weeks ago as they are now.

Nide: “What I have said is you need to repent from the delusion your in.”

Yes, I recall this. This means that you have the burden not only of proving that the Christian god exists and that Christianity is true, but also that I’m deluded. You’ve not met any of these burdens, nor any of the others to which your statements have committed you.

Nide: “I am not telling you to believe in anything because you already do.”

This is another burden of proof that you’ve neglected. It’s just another unproven assertion of yours. Dime a dozen.

Nide: “You, Ydemoc, And Justin all believe in the Christian God. Your merely in self-denial.”

More unmet burdens on your part. You can try to delude yourself that all these things are true. Perhaps you have. But it’s a fantasy. None of it has any basis in reality.

Nide: “Does anything outside of time exist?”

What does the bible say time is? What is the biblical definition of ‘time’? How does it “account for” time? Please provide book, chapter and verses for all your answers.

Nide: “I read the two links you provided. So, yea, the contradictions are only in your head.”

It’s interesting that instead of dealing with my arguments, you resort to unsubstantiated dismissals and repetitive personal attacks that have already been corrected. If you think the Christian doctrine of Christ is sound, free of internal conflict, and non-contradictory, why not address the points I raised in the two links I provided? You take the easy route: just dismiss what you don’t want to believe and belittle your worldview’s critics. Why not explain how something can be both wholly mortal and wholly immortal? Why not explain how something can be both wholly finite and wholly infinite? You have your work cut out for you.

Nide: “As you admitted contradictions don't exist in reality.”

Contradictions are epistemological, not metaphysical. They occur when statements attempt to integrate a violation of the law of identity. Such as we find in the Christian doctrines of the trinity and Christ, as I’ve shown.

Nide: “Jesus knew who he was.”

You’re stating this as a fact. You’re expecting me to accept it as truth. So I was right: contrary to your denial, you are over here at my blog telling me what to believe.

Nide: “The real question is are you saying that God couldn't enter into his creation and take on a human body if so why not?”

Within the context of a fictional tale, a fictional character can do anything its imaginers imagine it can do.

Nide: “Have you checked to see if your sane?”

Yes. I’ve checked. I’m sane.

Now, when you can deal with the issues, instead of fixating on ways to denigrate your opponents personally, please let us know.

Also, when are you going to explain your claim that “God is logic” and show how the view you are endorsing is authentically biblical? I'm waiting.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

BB,

Thanks for this little Gem its pretty hilarious:

"Yes, I see that confusion is hard for you to outrun. But let me help a little bit. If you recall, throughout this thread you’ve recited a few bible verses about fools or calling people fools. You seem to think that non-Christians are fools. Indeed, internet apologists seem conspicuously delighted every time they get a chance to call a non-Christian a fool, and in fact work hard at manufacturing such opportunities, such as when they mischaracterize an opponent’s position for the sake of finding it “absurd.”"

Dawson,

You asked some really important questions that I have been wanting to respond to and today was the predetermined time. So here we go:


You asked:"Is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures? Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem? Is it logical to make a wager with the devil, as we find in the book of Job? Is it logical to promise that people will get what they ask for if they ask in Jesus’ name, when in fact such a promise is never kept? I could go on, but you get the point. Logic is as compatible with the Christian worldview bleach is delicious on cornflakes."

1. Well, Adam was created without a sin nature. So, how did he sin? Idk. I will say this much God didn't create robots. Adam was created "perfect" but not God perfect. He freely chose to sin even though God predetermined that he would and that's the part you and Ydemoc can't handle.


2. God doesn't do things arbitraly, as much as you and ydemoc want to believe so , he has a purpose and a plan for everything that he causes and allows. This is another truth you and Ydemoc are terrified of.


3. Wager with the devil? maybe you can expand on this one if you like.


4. It's interesting that you continually harrass and press other christians, since you are a christian yourself, to tell you why Jesus doesn't answer your prayers. This only shows your ignorance of what the bible actually teaches. God has a will that no man can thwart. If God was to give in to your little whims this would be a really scary place to live in.


You said: "bleach is delicious on cornflakes."

Is this why you think you are sane?

Anonymous said...

BB,

The bible is not a physics book. Why do you contunially press other christians to give in to your antics and whims?


God is time. He is timeful. Where do you think we get our sense of time from?


God is not bound by time. He is not a temporal being.


continued

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "If a scientist told you that you evolved from a flying whale would you believe him?"

What basis do you have for proffering this question? Have you done research in this area? Are there some studies by scientists that have suggested this? Tell me. I'd like to see how it expands on the knowledge I already have.

Trinity wrote: "Maybe you were asleep "behind the wheel" but if you notice Scientists admit they could be wrong about evolution. I say it's a belief not a truth."

Does this mean you maintain that belief falls well short of certainty? Unless of course, it's belief in your god, in which case belief makes you certain?

I wrote: "And how do you suppose humans in general and scientists in particular, came to the have a understanding of the concept "error?"

Trinity wrote: "I answered this already but here it is again. God is truth. We were created in his Image. Therefore we have a sense of truth. That's why we can make judgements about truth and error."

Yes. And this answer of yours has been dismantled.

Trinity wrote: "You asked me about a rocks truth value have you checked to see if your sane?"

Again, your dishonesty is on display, for you left something out in what I was responding to. Let's review:
------
You wrote: "A thing is either true or false."

I wrote: "Is a rock true or false?"

You responded: "You asked me about a rocks truth value have you checked to see if your sane?"
-----

You made the claim "A thing is either true or false." I simply asked you if a rock -- a thing -- falls into this category. Why would you ask me about my sanity?

I wrote: "Finally, your god supposedly preordains and controls everything that comes to pass. This would have to include all evidence pointing to the truth of evolution, would it not? In your view, isn't evolution, and people "believing in it," all just a part of your god's grand scheme?"

(continued)

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "It's not a supposition or scheme. It's a reality. God predetermined everything. Even the pair of socks you wore yesterday."

It's nice to see you admit that your god predetermined the overwhelming evidence that points to evolution. Can you tell me why your god might have done this? If you can't tell me why, maybe he'll give you a sign if you pray this prayer:

"Dear Lord,

Hi, it's me, Trinity. I know that you know my real name is either Hezekiah, or Nide, or r_c321, but lately on a blog, Ydemoc has been referring to me as Trinity -- I know you know this, too -- and I've been responding to him when he addresses me as Trinity. I hope you and the other persons with you don't mind me doing so.

Anywho, I want to ask: Why have you made the evidence for evolution so overwhelming? Is it because you want some people to accept it so that they reject you and go to hell?

But, Lord, haven't you already predetermined who is going to hell and who isn't, regardless of any evolutionary evidence for people to reject or accept?

Ahhh, but maybe this is your way of doing just that -- of playing it all out just the way you have planned it from the get-go.

I think I've got it now, Lord.

Oh, just one more thing: When it was written in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life,"-- is this a truth or a belief? And did you mean by "the world," everybody, including those who believe in evolution and reject you? 'Cuz I don't really get how the bible would say this if it everything was all predetermined from the get-go.

Well, I don't care about none'a that thinkin' stuff or evidence -- I still believe in you.

Amen"

------

As a side note: You could also pray this to a milk carton and get the same answer. In any case, do let me know what answer you receive.

Ydemoc

ActionJackson864 said...

Did Nide's fallacy counter explode?

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

Thanks for the prayer I was blessed.

So, how long have you been praying to milk cartons?

Is this how you know you are sane?


AJ is back.

Bahnsen Burner said...

I asked: “Is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures?”

Nide responded: “1. Well, Adam was created without a sin nature. So, how did he sin? Idk. I will say this much God didn't create robots. Adam was created "perfect" but not God perfect. He freely chose to sin even though God predetermined that he would and that's the part you and Ydemoc can't handle.”

Notice that none of this addresses my question above. Nide does not say whether it is logical or not for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures. Nide again prefers to remain in the dark when a direct question has been posed to him.

But consider what Nide did say. He says “Adam was created without a sin nature.” That’s strange. Apparently Adam had a sin nature later. Can a leopard change his spots? Can a man change his own nature? How? If a man does have a sin nature, can he change this by himself? What Christian would say he can? Again, Nide seems to be departing from Christian doctrine.

Nide asks: “So, how did he sin?” He responds to his own question: “Idk,” which I take to be an abbreviation for “I don’t know.” Why would Nide feel the need to abbreviate here? Why not just spell it out, as he does with so many of his non-essential asides (e.g., “Is this why you think you are sane?”)? Nide must be feeling some discomfort when he admits his own ignorance about something germane to Christian theology. But read a bit further and Nide himself tells us why Adam sinned: because his god "predetermined that he would." Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way.

Nide then says: “I will say this much God didn’t create robots.” But according to much of the New Testament, men are nothing more than puppets, being pushed and pulled by invisible magic spirits, whether nefarious or divinely dispatched. But speaking to the heart of the matter that Nide is seeking to address, let us ask: Is the Christian god a robot? I don’t know any Christian who would characterize his god as a robot. So why would Adam need to be a robot? Christians tell us that their god is free and can do whatever it wills, and that whatever it wills is good and holy. Why didn’t it create creatures with the same inclination? Why did it create creatures with something less than this perfection?

Nide says that “Adam was created ‘perfect’ but not God perfect.” This is like saying that there are degrees of perfection, which defies the very meaning of the concept. Either something is perfect, or it’s not. When Christians call their god perfect, they don’t put the word in quotes (as Nide has done in the case of Adam) as if it didn’t really apply, nor do they say that their god is “God perfect.” I’ve never seen that expression in the Westminster Confession, for instance, let alone the bible itself.

But this seems to be a roundabout admission to the view that the Christian god really didn’t create a perfect creator when it created Adam. And the proof is in Adam’s actions, as Nide himself points out for us: Adam “freely chose to sin.” As I’ve pointed out before, this can only mean that Adam was created without perfect judgment, for unless choosing to sin is a wise move (what Christian would say it is?), then clearly Adam did not govern his choices wisely. A perfect creature would have perfect judgment; the Christian god is said to be perfect and its judgments and choices are characterized by Christians as perfect – and yet they do not think their god is a robot. So such perfection is possible in their view without robotics. But yet its creatures do not exemplify this perfection, but indeed something far short of it. So the conclusion is unavoidable: the creator created imperfection. Which goes back to my question which Nide does not address: is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures?

[Continued...]

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide says that “Adam was created ‘perfect’ but not God perfect.” This is like saying that there are degrees of perfection, which defies the very meaning of the concept. Either something is perfect, or it’s not. When Christians call their god perfect, they don’t put the word in quotes (as Nide has done in the case of Adam) as if it didn’t really apply, nor do they say that their god is “God perfect.” I’ve never seen that expression in the Westminster Confession, for instance, let alone the bible itself.

But this seems to be a roundabout admission to the view that the Christian god really didn’t create a perfect creator when it created Adam. And the proof is in Adam’s actions, as Nide himself points out for us: Adam “freely chose to sin.” As I’ve pointed out before, this can only mean that Adam was created without perfect judgment, for unless choosing to sin is a wise move (what Christian would say it is?), then clearly Adam did not govern his choices wisely. A perfect creature would have perfect judgment; the Christian god is said to be perfect and its judgments and choices are characterized by Christians as perfect – and yet they do not think their god is a robot. So such perfection is possible in their view without robotics. But yet its creatures do not exemplify this perfection, but indeed something far short of it. So the conclusion is unavoidable: the creator created imperfection. Which goes back to my question which Nide does not address: is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures?

Nide said: “even though God predetermined that he would”

Which raises an adjunct question to my original: is it logical for a holy being to predetermine its creatures to do that which is unholy?

Regarding the position that “God predetermined that [Adam] would [sin],” Nide added: “that's the part you and Ydemoc can't handle.” In fact, it seems to be the part that Nide himself cannot handle very well. For when he considers the question “how did [Adam] sin?” he says “Idk” – i.e., “I don’t know,” but then comes out and tells us that his god “predetermined” Adam’s sinning at the same time. So why doesn’t Nide know how Adam sinned? He tells us right there! Amazing!

The ball of yarn has indeed unraveled.

[Continued…]

Bahnsen Burner said...

I asked: “Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem?”

Nide responded: “God doesn't do things arbitraly,”

This is essentially what you’ve been called to establish. That’s why I asked these questions about whether or not it’s logical to do the things I inquired about. As with the first question, you’ve not addressed my second question. Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem? Is that logical or not? Nide does not answer. Instead, he filibusters.

He says “God doesn’t do things arbitrarily.” I haven’t seen any action attributed to the Christian god by the books of the bible that are *not* arbitrary, so Nide will have a long haul in trying to seal his denial here.

Nide continues: “as much as you want and ydemoc to believe”

This is projection on Nide’s part. Since Nide governs his beliefs by what he *wants* to be true, he assumes that others do the same. But we don’t. Many thinkers evaluate according to objective criteria, such as I have presented on my blog. I realize that the vast bulk of this is well beyond Nide’s intellectual development (indeed, he believes in invisible magic beings and wants to believe in storybooks), but it’s there for Nide to examine if he ever chooses to think like an adult.

Nide: “he has a purpose and a plan for everything that he causes and allows.”

The notion that an immortal, indestructible being which has no needs and cannot be harmed has a “purpose” commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. I have already shown this in my blog Theistic Misuse of the Concepts of Meaning, Value and Purpose.

Nide: “This is another truth you and Ydemoc are terrified of.”

I’m not terrified of something that is merely a figment of your imagination, Nide. I know you want us to be afraid, and that’s why you continually return to this topic. But it is your worldview which bases knowledge on fear (cf. Proverbs 1:7), not ours. The fear is yours, and all yours. You simply resent us for not being frightened of the same. Essentially, you envy us.

[Continued…]

Bahnsen Burner said...

I asked: “Is it logical to make a wager with the devil, as we find in the book of Job?”

Nide: “Wager with the devil? maybe you can expand on this one if you like.”

I see no need to expand on this. The book of Job already does this. You might want to read it some time. But my question makes sense on its own: Is it logical to make a wager with the devil? I see that you do not address this question either.

[Continued…]

Bahnsen Burner said...

I asked: “Is it logical to promise that people will get what they ask for if they ask in Jesus’ name, when in fact such a promise is never kept?”

Nide responded: “It's interesting that you continually harrass and press other christians, since you are a christian yourself, to tell you why Jesus doesn't answer your prayers.”

It’s interesting that Nide characterizes his god as logical, and yet cannot find it within himself to answer direct questions about whether or not it’s logical to do certain things. Here’s another example. Nide does not tell us whether or not it’s logical to promise that people will get what they ask for in if they ask in Jesus’ name, when in fact such a promise is never kept. See for example my blog Five Years and Still Waiting… from earlier this year.

Nide: “This only shows your ignorance of what the bible actually teaches.”

No, I’m fully aware of what it teaches. I can even quote it for you. Here’s John 14:14: “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” The gospel of John puts these words into Jesus’ mouth. Jesus is supposed to be “God,” right? And “God is no respecter of persons” according to Acts 10:34. So yes, any ignorance here is not on my part. It may be that you’re not talking about the Christian god, but some other god that you’ve inflated in your imagination. But I’m going by what the bible says of *its* god, regardless of what god you worship.

Nide: “God has a will that no man can thwart.”

Interesting. So does Blarko.

Nide: “If God was to give in to your little whims this would be a really scary place to live in.”

How do you know?

Again, we aren’t given an answer to this, or any of my other questions. It’s all a ruse, a series of deflections, a massive evasion on Nide’s part. He doesn’t want to answer direct questions about logic. He doesn’t seem even to know the answers. Or, he does have some idea of how to answer them, but rightly senses that his answers will undermine his theistic confession. That’s true, they will. But so do the actions that he chooses instead. He has no credibility as a spokesperson for his god.

But, we already knew that. It’s good, however, to have him confirm this for the record.

Regards,
Dawson

Bahnsen Burner said...

I asked Nide to tell us what the bible says about time, what time is, how it accounts for it, etc.

Nide responds: “The bible is not a physics book.”

I don’t think any rational individual would mistake it for a physics book. Take myself for example. I don’t think it’s a physics book. I’ve seen physics books. The bible is certainly no physics book.

But a book doesn’t have to be a physics book to answer the questions I’ve raised about the biblical view of time. If in fact the bible has a view of time, it does not need to be a physics book in order to present such a view. Common dictionaries, for instance, are not physics books, but they typically give definitions for the concept ‘time’ in them. Many philosophy books, including some Objectivist sources, offer ideas on the nature of time. They aren’t physics books either. So Nide leads off with more of his characteristic diversionary tactics.

Nide asks: “Why do you contunially press other christians to give in to your antics and whims?”

Why can’t Nide just address simple questions posed to him about the issues instead of trying to redirect the discussion to personal assessments? What’s he afraid of? Why can’t he just deal with the issues? The issue is not whether or not I’m pressing Christians to give into my alleged “antics and whims.” Nide comes to my blog of his own free will. He doesn’t have to be here if he thinks my expectations are unreasonable. Why not just address the questions about the issues?

Nide: “God is time.”

Like his claim that “God is logic” (which Nide still has not explained), the view he expresses here (“God is time”) does not seem to be a biblical position. If it’s in the bible, he needs to show us where in the bible it can be found. Otherwise, it appears that Nide is creating his own gospel, for he is not talking about the Christian god at this point. He’s inventing his own form of heresy, again. This is a result of imagining his god in a manner that departs from what is written in the storybook.

Nide: “He is timeful.”

I don’t know what this is supposed to mean, for Nide does not explain it, just as he does not explain his claim that “God is time” (just as he doesn’t explain his claim that “God is logic”). Nor does Nide secure this position as authentically biblical. It appears to be his own invention. He’s making things up as he goes. Would the Christian god approve of this behavior?

Nide: “Where do you think we get our sense of time from?”

From our conscious interaction with existence.

Nide: “God is not bound by time.”

Interesting. Neither is Blarko.

Nide: “He is not a temporal being.”

Interesting. Neither is Blarko.

Regards,
Dawson

Justin Hall said...

@AJ

yes the meter could not deal with a religious fanatic.

@Dawson

looking across the metaphysical landscape of this debate, I think I see a smoking crater where Nide was.

Ydemoc said...

Dawson,

Outstanding response to Trinity!

I liked where you wrote: "Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way."

This is great! In one fell swoop you've identified the deficiency in Trinity's entire thought process -- an immense disconnect.

This one sentence could be applied to everything Trinity has written (or, perhaps, will write). I might even cite it the next time he writes a response to me. After everything he writes I might just respond with, ""Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way."

That would save a lot of time.

Ydemoc

Ydemoc said...

To All,

Here's a little nugget that popped out at me upon reading Dawson's reply to Trinity:

Many Christians say that Jesus, The Holy Spirit and the Father are three *persons* of the godhead.

Yet in Acts 10:34 we read: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

Does this mean biblegod doesn't respect Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and Himself?

I realize I will be accused of taking things out of context -- and perhaps I am -- (as if the bible in it's entirety isn't just one big, out-of-context, fantasy filled storybook). But theologians cherry-pick bible verses all the time when preaching, witnessing, sermonizing and in formulating doctrine. So why shouldn't I?

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

Said: "This one sentence could be applied to everything Trinity has written (or, perhaps, will write). I might even cite it the next time he writes a response to me. After everything he writes I might just respond with, ""Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way."


Now we have, Ydemoc, predeterming things. It's interesting because God predetermines things. Justin see the "proof".

Ydemoc said...

I had written: "This one sentence could be applied to everything Trinity has written (or, perhaps, will write). I might even cite it the next time he writes a response to me. After everything he writes I might just respond with, 'Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way'"

Trinity responded: "Now we have, Ydemoc, predeterming things. It's interesting because God predetermines things. Justin see the "proof"."

Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way.

Just as I thought -- Dawson's words serve as a perfect response.

What a time-saver!

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

I think I will also use it with some minor revisions.


Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Dawson and Ydemoc need to suspend in their minds to carry on this way. For they both know the Christian God exists but choose not to repent from their delusion. It's interesting that they would both continue to make the claim that God is imaginary and then turn around and tell those that are dear to them that they love them. Well, the problem is they can't see love. That raises the question then is love also imaginary?

You can say you feel love. Well, I feel God. Therefore God must exist

Ydemoc on what rational basis do you justify your use of the word love?


Justin see the "proof"?

Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...

(previous 2 comments deleted because of an additional question being added, then additional detail)

Trinity wrote: "Ydemoc on what rational basis do you justify your use of the word love?"

Just as I would any other word or action: On an objective basis, by means of "reason as one’s only source of knowledge, one’s only judge of values and one’s only guide to action." (“The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, p. 25)

Can you kiss your god? Does your god kiss you?

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

Why are you asking me if me and God kiss each other?

Have you checked to see if your sane?

So, then love is based on actions. Great

Well, I pray, go to church, read the bible, witness
So, I must love God. On that basis he must exist.

Is love only based on kisses?

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "Why are you asking me if me and God kiss each other?"

To inquire as to the *object* of your affection. You love your god(s), do you not? The three "persons" of the godhead? Kissing people (or persons) is just one of many ways to express our affections to the those we love -- the *objects* of our affection.

However, if the object(s) of our affection happen to be a figment of the imagination and not really a person -- as is clearly the case with the Christian god(s) -- then this question would expose the difficulty you would have in answering it. My question has accomplished its task.

Trinity wrote: "Have you checked to see if your sane?"

"Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way." (Dawson Bethrick)

Trinity wrote: "So, then love is based on actions. Great"

Where have I said this? I wrote that the rational basis for justifying love is on an objective basis, by means of reason as one's only judge of values. Love is an emotional response to our highest values.

Trinity wrote: "Well, I pray, go to church, read the bible, witness. So, I must love God."

Yes, I'm sure as a dutiful Christian you do all these things. But love isn't a duty. And even if you don't claim to do these things out of duty, but because you desire to, I would still say that your so-called "love" is in vain, for you have yet to establish the object of your affection. Can you point out for me the object of your affection? Or is it just in your imagination?

Trinity wrote: "On that basis he must exist."

Only in your imagination.

Trinity wrote: "Is love only based on kisses?"

No. Nor have I ever suggested such a notion. See above. Also, once again, please process this:

"Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Trinity needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way." (Dawson Bethrick)

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

asked: " Can you point out for me the object of your affection?


So, were back to this. This morning did you check to see if you were still Ydemoc?

Are there people in alaska?

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide: "Are there people in alaska?"

What is "people"?

What is "alaska"?

Please explain yourself.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...

Dawson,

Can you see love?

I'm pretty sure you won't find it hard to give an explanation.

Ydemoc said...

Since Trinity (aka, r_c321, Nide, Hezekiah -- the three persons of the Knucklehead) maintains he loves his god(s), I had asked him if kissing was one of the ways he expressed this love to his god(s), and/or if his god(s) were able to express their/its love towards Trinity in a similar manner.

He didn't directly answer this question, but sought to escape its implications by going off on a tangent and asking questions of his own.

But I pursued the line of questioning a little further, asking, Trinity: "Can you point out for me the object of your affection?"

To this, Trinity replied: "So, were back to this. This morning did you check to see if you were still Ydemoc? Are there people in alaska?"

It's responses like this that lead me to post the following:

"Consider the immensity of the disconnect that Nide needs to suspend in his mind to carry on this way." (Dawson Bethrick)

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

I asked this before but you keep evading.

Here it is again:

For you to believe something do you have to see it?

Anonymous said...

BB,

Asked: "is it logical for a perfect creator to create imperfect creatures?


Do you and ydemoc get pleasure out of pressing and harrasing other christians?

I know it's hard for you and ydemoc to wrap your finite "little" minds around these truths.

God can't create another God. This is the part you keep missing.


Ydemoc,

Dawson said: "Nide says that “Adam was created ‘perfect’ but not God perfect.” This is like saying that there are degrees of perfection, which defies the very meaning of the concept"


See that? The same applies to truth there are no degrees of it.

So, is evolotuion true or false?

Dawson,

Said: "Regarding the position that “God predetermined that [Adam] would [sin],” Nide added: “that's the part you and Ydemoc can't handle.” In fact, it seems to be the part that Nide himself cannot handle very well. For when he considers the question “how did [Adam] sin?” he says “Idk” – i.e., “I don’t know,” but then comes out and tells us that his god “predetermined” Adam’s sinning at the same time. So why doesn’t Nide know how Adam sinned? He tells us right there! Amazing!


Not exactly. The problem is you demand from other christians something you yourself can't give.

I can't give you the mechanics of these things.

It's like asking how's a cow created.

Maybe you know. So without question begging and avoiding a circle, how is a horse created?



You pressed on and asked: "Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem? Is that logical or not?


It's extremely Logical everything was done according to plan.


You continued your harrasment by asking and saying:

"No, I’m fully aware of what it teaches. I can even quote it for you. Here’s John 14:14: “If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” The gospel of John puts these words into Jesus’ mouth. Jesus is supposed to be “God,” right? And “God is no respecter of persons” according to Acts 10:34. So yes, any ignorance here is not on my part. It may be that you’re not talking about the Christian god, but some other god that you’ve inflated in your imagination. But I’m going by what the bible says of *its* god, regardless of what god you worship.

Nide: “God has a will that no man can thwart.”

Interesting. So does Blarko.



Can you define and give a description of blarko?


Well, of course I can take any verse of the bible and misuse it as you and ydemoc continue to do.



You challenged me by saying:

"Nide: “If God was to give in to your little whims this would be a really scary place to live in.”

How do you know?"


Ok, can you share with us some of your whims?





If God stopped time would stop.

Cats don't have babe elephants. That's logical.


You asked: "Can a leopard change his spots? Can a man change his own nature? How? If a man does have a sin nature, can he change this by himself? What Christian would say he can? Again, Nide seems to be departing from Christian doctrine.


This is another one of your perversions.


Natures aren't spatial.

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "For you to believe something do you have to see it?"

In my worldview, belief is the degree of confidence one has in something that falls well short of certainty. And I can be certain or have a degree of confidence in something without seeing it because of the nature of my consciousness.

My ability to believe something or to be certain of something is due to the fact that my consciousness is such that I have concepts at my disposal, and can arrive at an understanding of things.

I have pointed out to you before, Helen Keller did not need to have eyesight of reality in order to have knowledge.

As Ayn Rand writes: "None of [the traditional theories of concepts] regards concepts as objective, i.e., as neither revealed nor invented, but as produced by man’s consciousness in accordance with the facts of reality, as mental integrations of factual data computed by man—as the products of a cognitive method of classification whose processes must be performed by man, but whose content is dictated by reality." (Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, “Definitions,” p. 54)

And as Dawson explains in "Chris Bolt on the Conditions of Knowledge," July 24, 2009:“Justified True Belief”

It is clear that Bolt assumes the “justified, true belief” account of knowledge (JTB) in his discussion of the conditions of knowledge. This conception of knowledge is widely popular, especially among academics, and of course presuppositionalists. Bahnsen makes it clear that his apologetic assumes the JTB view of knowledge (cf. Van Til’s Apologetic: Readings & Analysis, pp. 177, 181, et al.). Bahnsen in fact tells us that “knowledge is a subcategory of belief” (p. 159). Since the JTB account assumes that knowledge is comprised of beliefs, it would be important to have a good understanding of what a “belief” is. Though it is not completely clear to me what “belief” is for Bahnsen (he characterizes it as “a positive attitude toward a proposition, meaning that one relies upon it… in guiding one’s actions,” p. 160), but he does allow that “there are many kinds of belief… and many interesting aspects of belief” (Ibid.). Beyond remarks like these, Bahnsen offers little of value in enlightening his readers as to what a belief is.

In my view, it is not the case that “knowledge is a subcategory of belief,” as if the concept ‘belief’ is broader than and includes the concept ‘knowledge’ (as the concept ‘mammal’ is broader than and includes the concept ‘dog’). Rather, belief is the degree of confidence we have in a conclusion, affirmation, assessment, estimation, judgment, etc. Bahnsen comes close to this when he says that “beliefs are held with differing degrees of confidence” (Ibid.), but on my view belief is the degree of confidence – specifically one which is less than certain. For instance, if my co-worker asks where our boss is presently, I might respond, “I believe he’s at lunch,” which is to say that I have some confidence in this supposition. Importantly, by saying “I believe” this to be the case, I am signifying that I am not certain, but that’s the best that I can offer without further input, and I’m open to correction on the matter. Note also that the measure of this degree of confidence is typically indicated by use of modifiers, especially adverbs, such as when one says he “firmly believes” or “somewhat believes” something to be the case."

(continued)

Ydemoc said...

Dawson continues:

"Now I reject the JTB account of knowledge not only because it assumes that knowledge is comprised of beliefs, but also because it erroneously treats “beliefs” as irreducible primaries. JTB treats beliefs as if they were the fundamental building blocks used in assembling our body of knowledge, which is sorely mistaken. This aspect of the JTB account of knowledge typically seems reasonable to many thinkers because beliefs are often thought of as complete units. But in fact, they are not irreducible. On the contrary, they are composed of yet more fundamental building blocks. Bahnsen’s own characterization of belief as “a positive attitude toward a proposition” only confirms this, for propositions are also not irreducible (as I point out here), and yet, on this understanding, in order to have belief, there’d first have to be propositions toward which to have “a positive attitude.” So the propositions, which themselves are not irreducible, would have to come before one could believe in them. What’s more, he would have to have awareness (indeed, knowledge) of those propositions in order to have any attitude toward them, even if that attitude is (as Bahnsen has it) only implicitly positive.

Take for example a very simple “belief” which might typically be counted as an example of a “justified, true belief.” Let that example be “dogs eat food.” As a unit of thought, it seems complete, right? Perhaps so. But the question for our purposes here is: is it irreducible? The answer is no, it is not irreducible. Specifically, it is not conceptually irreducible, which is to say: it can be broken down into its constituent components, namely the concepts ‘dog’, ‘eat’ and ‘food’. The “belief” is in fact composed of concepts. Without these concepts, how could you form this “belief”? You couldn’t. So to have the “belief” “dogs eat food,” you need the concepts which inform that belief. As the building blocks of “beliefs,” concepts are more fundamental than “beliefs,” and need to be accounted for. Where did you get them? Or, more specifically, how did you form them? Or did you? The answers to such questions are provided by a good theory of concepts, which is ultimately what is needed if one wants to give an “account” for knowledge."

****end quote****

Trinity, your question along with what Ayn Rand and Dawson write, again raises the question: Is your god(s) a concept?

Ydemoc

Ydemoc said...

Trinity (also known as r_c321, Nide, Hezekiah -- the three persons of the Knucklehead) addressed me with a quote from Dawson: "Nide says that “Adam was created ‘perfect’ but not God perfect.” This is like saying that there are degrees of perfection, which defies the very meaning of the concept"

Trinity then wrote: "See that?"

Yes.

Trinity wrote: "The same applies to truth there are no degrees of it."

Okay.

Trinity wrote: "So, is evolotuion true or false?"

I don't know what "evolotuion" is. Can you tell me what "evolotuion" is?

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

Wasting time again I see.

Let me be more specific.


Do you need direct physical contact to be convinced of the existence of a person, place or thing?

Justin Hall said...

Speaking only for myself I do not need direct physical contact to be convinced of the existence of a person, place or thing. However I do require a valid logical reason to accept such claims, ie non contradictory evidence.

Ydemoc said...

Trinity asked: Do you need direct physical contact to be convinced of the existence of a person, place or thing?

No, I do not need direct physical contact to be convinced of the existence of a person, place, or thing, since I have concepts that were formed by perceptual inputs from reality, from the world around me, from things that exist. Concepts expand my awareness beyond the perceptual.

As Dawson has written: "There is the world, and there is my awareness of the world (which in fact is part of the world), and my knowledge of the world builds on the basis of my awareness of the world. If I build my knowledge according to an objective method (which the objective theory of concepts supplies) from the basis of what I perceive and observe, then the resulting knowledge is in fact knowledge of the world, since it is based on facts discovered in the world."

Is god a concept?

Ydemoc

Ydemoc said...

Trinity,

"He seems able to understand a discussion or a rational argument, sometimes even on an abstract, theoretical level. He is able to participate, to agree or disagree after what appears to be a critical examination of the issue. But the next time one meets him, the conclusions he reached are gone from his mind, as if the discussion had never occurred even though he remembers it: he remembers the event, i.e., a discussion, not its intellectual content.

It is beside the point to accuse him of hypocrisy or lying (though some part of both is necessarily involved). His problem is much worse than that: he was sincere, he meant what he said in and for that moment. But it ended with that moment. Nothing happens in his mind to an idea he accepts or rejects; there is no processing, no integration, no application to himself, his actions or his concerns; he is unable to use it or even to retain it. Ideas, i.e., abstractions, have no reality to him; abstractions involve the past and the future, as well as the present; nothing is fully real to him except the present. Concepts, in his mind, become percepts—percepts of people uttering sounds; and percepts end when the stimuli vanish. When he uses words, his mental operations are closer to those of a parrot than of a human being. In the strict sense of the word, he has not learned to speak.

But there is one constant in his mental flux. The subconscious is an integrating mechanism; when left without conscious control, it goes on integrating on its own—and, like an automatic blender, his subconscious squeezes its clutter of trash to produce a single basic emotion: fear." (Ayn Rand “The Comprachicos,” Return of the Primitive: The Anti-Industrial Revolution, p. 218)

Ydemoc

Ydemoc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ydemoc said...

Dawson,

I kind of liked my most recently deleted post (question) addressed to Trinity. But I deleted it, thinking that I would wait until later to post it.

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

Ydemoc,

God is a person.

You said: "No, I do not need direct physical contact to be convinced of the existence of a person, place, or thing, since I have concepts that were formed by perceptual inputs from reality, from the world around me, from things that exist. Concepts expand my awareness beyond the perceptual.



Ok, so if you see it you believe it. Great


Once again can you see love?

Are all "concepts" based on perception?



Justin,

can you provide the "contradictory evidence" you reject Christianity on?

Justin Hall said...

@Hezekiah

"can you provide the "contradictory evidence" you reject Christianity on?"

I added noncontradictory as a additional qualifier. The real issue for me with Christianity is that there is literally no verifiable evidence for it, contradictory or noncontradictory. So I reject it as arbitary.

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide wrote: “God is a person.”

Interesting. So is Blarko.

Nide: “Once again can you see love?”

If you knew what love is, you wouldn’t need to ask this question. But for us to answer the question for you, we would have to teach you what love is. And at this point I gather that teaching you anything is impossible, since you clearly don’t want to learn.

As proof, tell us your answer to this question: Does a loving father allow his own child to be tortured and executed, especially when he has the ability and opportunity to prevent it? Yes or no? Explain your answer.

Nide: “Are all ‘concepts’ based on perception?”

If your worldview had a theory of concepts, you would either know the answer to this question, or at the very least know where to find it. But since your worldview does not have a theory of concepts, we would have to teach you an enormous sum of knowledge to help you understand the answer to this question. And at this point I gather that that is essentially impossible, since you’ve demonstrated time and time again that you don’t want to learn.

Nide: “can you provide the ‘contradictory evidence’ you reject Christianity on?”

Evidence that Christianity is not only false, but also philosophically bankrupt, has been presented numerous times throughout the discussion. The evidence is also all around you, in everything you experience in life, since the very phenomenon of experiencing anything is tangible proof that Christianity is false. You just close your eyes to it. That’s what faith is all about, as has been explained. You don’t want to learn, so you don’t learn.

Besides, I’ve already shown that your views are heretical. You are not presenting authentic Christian doctrine. So why don’t you tell us the basis on which you rejected Christianity? I think that would be interesting.

Regards,
Dawson

Bahnsen Burner said...

Dawson,

I wrote: "Regarding the position that ‘God predetermined that [Adam] would [sin]’, Nide added: ‘that's the part you and Ydemoc can't handle’. In fact, it seems to be the part that Nide himself cannot handle very well. For when he considers the question ‘how did [Adam] sin?’ he says ‘Idk’ – i.e., ‘I don’t know’, but then comes out and tells us that his god ‘predetermined’ Adam’s sinning at the same time. So why doesn’t Nide know how Adam sinned? He tells us right there! Amazing!”

Nide: “Not exactly. The problem is you demand from other christians something you yourself can't give.”

Such as what? You say on the one hand that your god predetermined Adam’s sinning. But on the other, when considering the question “how did [Adam] sin?” you plead ignorance – “Idk”.

Meanwhile, I can answer the question, and I have, by pointing out that your answers contradict each other (you claim ignorance in response to a question while simultaneously giving an answer to that same question), but also by pointing out the enormous disconnect that must lie in the gulf of your own mind between the two horns of the contradiction that you’ve tried to peddle here. I’m not demanding that you present contradictory answers, and I don’t give contradictory answers. So I’m not expecting something that I can’t give.

But you do this: you demand from us something you yourself can’t give. You ask all kinds of questions, questions that aren’t even germane to the topic of discussion, while having no intention of ever answering such questions yourself. And when you're asked to give answers, you change the subject and ask new questions that are completely unrelated to the topic at hand. You're constantly on the run.

So I disagree: the problem here is not that I’m demanding from Christians something I myself cannot give. The problem is that Christians (and heretics like Nide) cannot explain their own worldview. This is not a problem that I share, for I can explain my own worldview. Which is most ironic given the Christian’s claim to be guided by “revelation” from an omniscient, infallible supernatural source and to possess “the mind of Christ.” I make no claim to such advantages, and yet I can explain my worldview while Christians (and heretics like Nide) are stumped with every question that’s posed to them.

[Continued…]

Bahnsen Burner said...

NIde: “I can't give you the mechanics of these things.”

Why not? The myth of the fall in Genesis does. It tells us exactly how Adam sinned. Apparently you’re not familiar with the story.

Nide: “It's like asking how's a cow created.”

So, you don’t know?????

Nide: “Maybe you know.”

My worldview does not affirm that cows were divinely created, nor does it expect others to accept the claim that they were so created as knowledge. But your worldview does, and yet it can’t provide any content to inform such beliefs. It’s just empty ignorance peddled in place of knowledge. It’s counterfeit.

Nide: “So without question begging and avoiding a circle, how is a horse created?”

That’s not for me to explain, since my worldview does not affirm that horses were created in the first place. So again, you seem to be demanding something from non-Christians something that Christians themselves (and you, being a heretic) cannot provide.

I asked: "Is it logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem? Is that logical or not?”

Nide: “It's extremely Logical everything was done according to plan.”

These are two different claims, since it’s quite possible to develop a plan that is not logical. To simply say it’s logical because it was done “according to plan” begs the question, for it assumes precisely what’s in question: was it logical? It’s possible for a plan to depart from logic, it’s possible for plans to be conceived illogically. Consider many of the plans endorsed by the Obama administration for example. Remember “Cash for Clunkers”? That was a plan, but it was hardly logical.

So you need to explain how it can be logical to condemn all of the human race for sin, and save only a tiny handful of persons (like 8 or so), and expect that to take care of the sin problem. You really need to explain this, since you have now affirmed that this expectation that the sin problem would have been resolved by such matters was “according to plan.”

Nide wrote: “God has a will that no man can thwart.”

In response, I pointed out: “Interesting. So does Blarko.”

Nide asked: “Can you define and give a description of blarko?”

No to the first (Blarko is not a concept, so definitions do not apply) but yes to the second (Blarko can be described).

Nide: “Well, of course I can take any verse of the bible and misuse it as you and ydemoc continue to do.”

You’ve not shown where either Ydemoc or I have misused any verse in the bible, and yet you accuse us of doing so. This only confirms you’re earlier admission that you do not guide your mind with logic. (Remember that? I do.) Besides, since you’re a heretic, why would you object to anyone misusing a verse in the bible? You think verses can be added to it willy-nilly. E.g., “God is logic,” “God is time,” etc.

Nide wrote: “If God was to give in to your little whims this would be a really scary place to live in.”

I asked: “How do you know?"

Nide now asks: “Ok, can you share with us some of your whims?”

No, Nide, above you made a knowledge claim. I asked you to explain how you could know what you claim to know. So please take us through the steps by which you acquired the understanding of what you claimed.

Nide: “If God stopped time would stop.”

Then don’t ever stop imagining your god, Nide. The continuation of time depends on you imagining your god.

Nide: “Cats don't have babe elephants. That's logical.”

But condemning the entire human race for sin and saving a few (like 8 or so) and expecting that to take care of the sin problem, is logical. Got it.

Nide: “Natures aren't spatial.”

Prove it.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...

BB,

Said: "Besides, I’ve already shown that your views are heretical. You are not presenting authentic Christian doctrine. So why don’t you tell us the basis on which you rejected Christianity? I think that would be interesting



This is actually a blatant distorted perversion of my position. The level of dishonesty that it takes to make these charges is utterly reprehensible.

It only shows your ignorance and desperation.


God is love. He's loving.


In fact the Lord Jesus said that his death is the greatest act of love anyone has ever seen and will see.

An innocent man laying down his life for wicked rebellious sinners is insurmountable.

It's not about him stopping anything.

He, purposefully, planned it. That's the part that you can't handle.


He even predetermined your rebellion and delusion.

God is extremely logical. He's logic. It reflects his actions.



can you define blarko and give a description of him?

Bahnsen Burner said...

I wrote: "Besides, I’ve already shown that your views are heretical. You are not presenting authentic Christian doctrine. So why don’t you tell us the basis on which you rejected Christianity? I think that would be interesting.”

Nide responded: “This is actually a blatant distorted perversion of my position.”

It’s not. It’s entirely accurate. I’ve been careful to ask you to explain your doctrines and show that they are authentically biblical. You’ve not been able to do either. Many of the views you have affirmed are not biblical at all. For instance, “God is logic” and “God is time.” These are not authentically biblical descriptions of the bible’s god (or gods), nor are they authentically Christian doctrine. You’ve not shown that they are.

Nide: “The level of dishonesty that it takes to make these charges is utterly reprehensible.”

On the contrary, I would have to be dishonest to suppose that they really are authentically biblical viewpoints, for I already recognize that they aren't. Do you think I should ignore what the bible actually says? That's more evidence of heresy on your part.

Nide: “It only shows your ignorance and desperation.”

That you now charge me with dishonesty in pointing out the biblically inauthentic nature of the views you’ve affirmed, only shows your ignorance and desperation (which have been on parade ever since you started posting here).

Regards,
Dawson

Ydemoc said...

Trinity wrote: "God is a person."

And yet...

"...God is no respecter of persons"-- Acts 10:34.

Whoops.

Ydemoc

Anonymous said...

I find hilarious that Dawson continues to press and harass.

You already called bahnsen a heretic for supposedly calling Jesus a fool.


For the record is van til a heretic?



Ydemoc,

There is always time to be a Buffoon.


Here is the question again:


Are all "concepts" based on perception?

ActionJackson864 said...

"For the record is van til a heretic?"

many Christians seem to think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNdxm7WRTc

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide wrote: “I find hilarious that Dawson continues to press and harass.”

I find it hilarious that Nide objects to being called out for his heresies, but cannot show that the positions he has affirmed are authentically biblical. Not one! That’s hilarious.

Nide the Heretic wrote: “You already called bahnsen a heretic for supposedly calling Jesus a fool.”

Thanks for reminding me. Yes, Bahnsen thinks that autonomous persons are “dull, stubborn, boorish, obstinate and stupid.” These are Bahnsen’s words. I’m just showing how they integrate with other positions which Bahnsen affirms as well as those compelled by Christianity’s doctrinal affirmations.

Nide asked: “For the record is van til a heretic?”

Many Christians think so. But that’s not my problem.

Nide wrote to Ydemoc: “There is always time to be a Buffoon.”

Nide, you prove this every time you post a comment.

Nide asked: “Are all ‘concepts’ based on perception?”

Nide, if your interest in concept theory were demonstrably sincere, we’d love nothing more to help you understand it, for we know that you won’t learn about concepts from the bible. But you’re not sincerely interested. There’s nothing honest about your “apologetic.” You have no interest in increasing your understanding. You just want to destroy understanding. This started when you destroyed your own understanding. You resent others for having understanding.

If you really want to know, you’ll need to prove that you’re more than a mere swine for the pearls we have to offer.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...

Dawson,

No. I'm asking you for your opinion all of a sudden you want to evade. Is van til a heretic?


Ydemoc,

are ALL "concepts" based on perception?



Yea, Dawson, I gave answer to your attack on Jesus' death. I haven't seen that you interacted with it. I'm waiting.

Bahnsen Burner said...

Nide wrote: “No. I'm asking you for your opinion all of a sudden you want to evade. Is van til a heretic?”

You nowhere specified me to give specifically my own opinion. You’ll see also that I’m not the only one who interpreted your question in the open-ended manner in which you chose to phrase it.

As for my opinion, why is it suddenly so important to you? You continually say I’m “delusional,” so why would you care what my opinion is? Again, your actions seem quite at odds with your statements.

Nide: “are ALL ‘concepts’ based on perception?”

I already gave a response to this. Scroll up if you didn’t see it. Meanwhile, can you tell us where the bible addresses your own question?

Nide wrote: “Yea, Dawson, I gave answer to your attack on Jesus' death. I haven't seen that you interacted with it. I'm waiting.”

No, you haven’t answered any of my questions, points and criticisms. I’m still waiting for you to do so. Please let me know if you decided to do so.

Regards,
Dawson

Anonymous said...

"Nide the Heretic wrote:"



"You have no interest in increasing your understanding. You just want to destroy understanding. This started when you destroyed your own understanding. You resent others for having understanding."


These qoutes are extremely funny.

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