tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post5329038081985344148..comments2024-03-27T09:11:00.450-04:00Comments on Incinerating Presuppositionalism: A Reply to Michael: Further Thoughts on the Issue of Supernatural DeceptionBahnsen Burnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comBlogger316125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-52224313088838075902012-02-13T20:40:32.325-05:002012-02-13T20:40:32.325-05:00Test.Test.Ydemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-531501075321374622011-12-31T14:43:10.826-05:002011-12-31T14:43:10.826-05:00blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yes or No?blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh<br /><br />Yes or No?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-78070584780301650892011-12-31T14:32:35.285-05:002011-12-31T14:32:35.285-05:00Trinity's "Yes or No" demand demonst...Trinity's "Yes or No" demand demonstrates not only his failure to meet my evidentiary standard; but it also delays any challenge he might formulate and present as to the reasonableness of my standard. But that's quite all right, for I enjoy crafting my responses. <br /><br />For those wishing to review what all the fuss is about, I am re-posting the following: <br /><br />------------<br /><br />In our latest discussion, Trinity has asked: "By the way have you ever lied and fabricated?"<br /><br />But I have requested that he meet a minimum evidentiary standard before I answer this question. The following are the conditions of this reasonable standard:<br /><br />"He will have to narrow his scope and present evidence for what he thinks I may have lied about.<br /><br />Also, and more importantly, he will have to meet a standard of relevance: He will have to explain how his evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance to my contention that mystics who wrote the bible were merely fabricators, scribbling down many tales that are flat-out lies, for example "Conversational Donkeys" and "Chit-Chatty Snakes."<br /><br />Also, he needs to explain how his evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance as to whether all men lie."<br /><br />This is what I would consider to be a reasonable standard. But perhaps there are factors that I have not considered. Like I said before, if Trinity would like to make his case that my standard is not reasonable, he can do so. If his case is persuasive, I would consider changing my standard. But until he does so, or until he meets my current standard, he can ask me the same question all day long, (or even shorten it to "Yes or no?") and he will still get the same basic response from me.<br /><br />Like I said, I enjoy crafting a response to his repeated question, because when I do, I tend to think of new things to say.<br /><br />-----------<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-78993690924743828522011-12-31T14:07:42.194-05:002011-12-31T14:07:42.194-05:00Yes or NoYes or NoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-72922611105944182592011-12-31T14:04:45.642-05:002011-12-31T14:04:45.642-05:00In our latest discussion, Trinity has asked: "...In our latest discussion, Trinity has asked: "By the way have you ever lied and fabricated?"<br /><br />But I have requested that he meet a minimum evidentiary standard before I answer this question. The following are the conditions of this reasonable standard: <br /><br />"He will have to narrow his scope and present evidence for what he thinks I may have lied about.<br /><br />Also, and more importantly, he will have to meet a standard of relevance: He will have to explain how his evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance to my contention that mystics who wrote the bible were merely fabricators, scribbling down many tales that are flat-out lies, for example "Conversational Donkeys" and "Chit-Chatty Snakes."<br /><br />Also, he needs to explain how his evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance as to whether all men lie."<br /><br />This is what I would consider to be a reasonable standard. But perhaps there are factors that I have not considered. Like I said before, if Trinity would like to make his case that my standard is not reasonable, he can do so. If his case is persuasive, I would consider changing my standard. But until he does so, or until he meets my current standard, he can ask me the same question all day long, (or even shorten it to "Yes or no?") and he will still get the same basic response from me. <br /><br />Like I said, I enjoy crafting a response to his repeated question, because when I do, I tend to think of new things to say.<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-62984220448347089292011-12-31T13:37:03.284-05:002011-12-31T13:37:03.284-05:00Yes or no?Yes or no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-11660340788418636742011-12-31T13:26:34.186-05:002011-12-31T13:26:34.186-05:00Once again, Trinity inquired: "Have you ever ...Once again, Trinity inquired: "Have you ever lied and fabricated?"<br /><br />I am willing to answer you. But you have to meet the reasonable standard. Perhaps you think my standard is not reasonable. If so, then tell me why, and I may reconsider my standard. <br /><br />Look, either way it doesn't matter to me if you continue asking the same question. I will still keep answering you the way I have, because I enjoy writing responses -- I always think of something new to say while I'm doing so.<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-53800301826728835722011-12-31T13:06:13.335-05:002011-12-31T13:06:13.335-05:00Blah blah blah blah blah
Yes or No
Have you eve...Blah blah blah blah blah <br /><br />Yes or No<br /><br />Have you ever lied and fabricated?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-22074217039529304482011-12-31T12:38:11.197-05:002011-12-31T12:38:11.197-05:00Trinity,
You have to meet my evidentiary standard...Trinity,<br /><br />You have to meet my evidentiary standards if you want me to answer this question. <br /><br />Here, again, is my explanation of this reasonable standard: <br /><br />"You'll have to narrow your scope and present evidence for what you think I may have lied about.<br /><br />Also, and more importantly, you will have to meet a standard of relevance: Explain how your evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance to my contention that mystics who wrote the bible were merely fabricators, scribbling down many tales that are flat-out lies, for example "Conversational Donkeys" and "Chit-Chatty Snakes."<br /><br />Also explain how your evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance as to whether all men lie."<br /><br />Asking the same question over and over won't get you to that reasonable standard. <br /><br />This is really basic stuff, Trinity. Present your evidence. The burden is on you.<br /><br />But like I said, even you can produce evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or even if I were to admit to telling a lie, this does not mean that all men have done so.<br /><br />Slightly related to this topic (and I know I have asked this before): Is sarcasm a lie or a form of dishonesty? Is your god capable of using sarcasm? Is telling a joke a lie? Is your god capable of telling a joke? Is lying immoral in all cases? Or can telling a lie be highly moral?<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-15771034042680472972011-12-31T12:09:54.512-05:002011-12-31T12:09:54.512-05:00Ok
By the way have you ever lied and fabricated?Ok<br /><br />By the way have you ever lied and fabricated?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-20477200473954692922011-12-31T11:31:29.760-05:002011-12-31T11:31:29.760-05:00Trinity writes: "By the way you have you ever...Trinity writes: "By the way you have you ever lied and fabricated something?"<br /><br />Sorry. But like I said before, you'll have to do more than just ask this question. You'll have to narrow your scope and present evidence for what you think I may have lied about. <br /><br />Also, and more importantly, you will have to meet a standard of relevance: Explain how your evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance to my contention that mystics who wrote the bible were merely fabricators, scribbling down many tales that are flat-out lies, for example "Conversational Donkeys" and "Chit-Chatty Snakes."<br /><br />Also explain how your evidence for any lie(s) I may have told, or any admission I may make as to lying, has any relevance as to whether all men lie.<br /><br />You have a lot evidence to gather and a lot of thinking to do.<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-58221421177533982452011-12-31T08:06:59.820-05:002011-12-31T08:06:59.820-05:00By the way you have you ever lied and fabricated s...By the way you have you ever lied and fabricated something?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-20285399306991765862011-12-31T04:11:38.861-05:002011-12-31T04:11:38.861-05:00So contrary to what you say below, the first thin...So contrary to what you say below, the first thing you need to do is (1) name a specific man or woman who you claim lied (2) name what it was they lied about (3) present evidence to support your claim that they lied. <br /><br />You see, unlike your bible, I do not condemn a man or a woman for just being alive. I don't condemn someone until they do something worthy of condemnation. Just as I do not praise them until they are worthy of praise. Nor do I forgive them until they are worthy of forgiveness. Nor do I love someone who is not worthy of love. I am not a proponent of giving to the unearned what they have not earned; nor of heaping guilt upon those because of what they have earned.<br /><br />Trinity wrote: "We can start with you have you ever lied and fabricated something?"<br /><br />At this point in time, you'll have to do more than just ask me this question. You'll have to narrow your scope and present evidence for what you think I may have lied about. You will also have to meet the standard of relevance: Tell my how my lying or not lying has any relevance to my contention that mystics who wrote the bible were merely fabricators, scribbling down many tales that are flat-out lies, for example "Conversational Donkeys."<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-65338346856090687372011-12-31T04:11:09.136-05:002011-12-31T04:11:09.136-05:00Have I presented evidence that the bible is filled...Have I presented evidence that the bible is filled with fabrications and lies? I certainly have. Have I submitted incontrovertible proof (in that denying the proof leads to a performative contradiction by the denier) that theism is invalid and the notion of god arbitrary at it's metaphysical foundation? I certainly have. (cf. Thorn's "Argument from Objective Reality," http://www.oocities.org/athens/sparta/1019/Morgue/Smallwood.htm)<br /><br />Because your storybook known as the Bible peddles -- from the get-go -- a metaphysics known as the Primacy of Consciousness, I can safely say that Christian god belief is, at it's very foundation, arbitrary.<br /><br />And whether or not the mystics who wrote these tales believed them to be fabrications or not is irrelevant to the fact that they are lies, fabrications, at at the foundation, arbitrary. <br /><br />So, again, the burden is on you, not me. The burden is not on me to prove that no one has lied, but the burden is on you to prove a particular person has lied and to tell us what they lied about. <br /><br />Do I maintain that some men have lied? Of course, but I do not maintain this without evidence. For example, all the evidence shows that O.J. Simpson lied. <br /><br />(continued)Ydemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-24368947423472310362011-12-31T04:10:15.872-05:002011-12-31T04:10:15.872-05:00Trinity wrote: "Jesus never lied so you'r...Trinity wrote: "Jesus never lied so you're right we have to subtract 1 from men."<br /><br />Well, this seems silly to say, for even on your terms, that being what Jesus is purported to have said in the bible, he appears to have lied about how soon he would be back. For instance, in Matthew 24:34, we read: "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled,"; and in Matthew 16:28 we read, ""Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."<br /><br />These and other passages not only present tremendous problems for your contention that Jesus did not lie, but they also support my position that the mystics who put words into his mouth, did lie! (or fabricated) <br /><br />And there's no need to post apologetic responses; I am quite familiar with them. Besides, there are other instances of inconsistent statements made by Jesus and what the bible says about him. <br /><br />Trinity wrote: "It's gonna take a lot of work to prove that the rest have never lied and fabricated things."<br /><br />The burden is not mine; its yours. To charge someone with a lie, you need to have evidence.<br /><br />(continued)Ydemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-24227164248122877312011-12-31T01:42:41.914-05:002011-12-31T01:42:41.914-05:00The fool seems to have missed this:
Jesus never l...The fool seems to have missed this:<br /><br />Jesus never lied so you're right we have to subtract 1 from men.<br /><br />It's gonna take a lot of work to prove that the rest have never lied and fabricated things.<br /><br />We can start with you have you ever lied and fabricated something?<br />December 30, 2011 8:36 PMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-52997872971997387132011-12-30T23:59:09.434-05:002011-12-30T23:59:09.434-05:00I forgot to include the rest of Trinity's resp...I forgot to include the rest of Trinity's response to Justin in my most recent post. It's probably better that I did, that way I can give it the attention it deserves:<br /><br />Trinity wrote: "If there is one thing you ever got right and that's that hell is a blessing."<br /><br />Go on...<br /><br />Trinity wrote: "Here we have a rebellious wicked sinner admitting that he is relying on other wicked rebellion sinners for "truth"."<br /><br />You are mischaracterizing what I wrote, as I outlined above. But, anyway, go on...<br /><br />Trinity wrote: "The bible couldn't more right men rather believe lies than the truth."<br /><br />When you and your bible speak of "men," you and it wouldn't be referring to "all men," would you, Trinity? Because if you and your bible are referring to "all men" that's going to present a few problems for you, Jesus, and many others -- unless you want to maintain that you, Jesus, and other Christians are liars. But let's see if you are more charitable to your use of the concept than you were to mine. Anyway, go on...<br /><br />Trinity: "I hope you get sent to the lowest deepest darkest abyss."<br /><br />Wow. Nothing like "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek." But, hey, this is to be expected from a lot of Christians: Hoping that those with whom they disagree get sent to an imaginary place of eternal torture. <br /><br />If I may float an idea here: It is this hope in an imaginary heaven and hell clashing with reality that drove so many Christians to take matters into their own hands and make sure their wishes realized, not in such imaginary places known as heaven and hell, but here on earth through the torturing and killing heretics and witches. <br /><br />Furthermore, in comments past, Trinity has indicated people send themselves to hell. But in the comment above, he seems to be saying that we are sent there by someone other than ourselves. <br /><br />Oh, well... such are the inconsistencies of Christianity.<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-58060913747085614262011-12-30T23:41:06.289-05:002011-12-30T23:41:06.289-05:00Ok Justin same to you.Ok Justin same to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-62501901849249745992011-12-30T23:36:31.244-05:002011-12-30T23:36:31.244-05:00Jesus never lied so you're right we have to su...Jesus never lied so you're right we have to subtract 1 from men.<br /><br />It's gonna take a lot of work to prove that the rest have never lied and fabricated things.<br /><br />We can start with you have you ever lied and fabricated something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-78003974824132975632011-12-30T23:30:46.890-05:002011-12-30T23:30:46.890-05:00@Nide
it is a good question deserving of a length...@Nide<br /><br />it is a good question deserving of a lengthy discussion. It is something we can discuss at a later time. I know what the objectivist answer is, it is just not something I am sure that I agree with yet. So sorry but you are going to have to accept a I don't have an opinion on the matter as of this time. We have been at this for months now, you can wait a few weeks:) Happy new year to both of you and anyone else reading this blog.Justin Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17804641315202800289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-90202429564172351962011-12-30T23:17:56.047-05:002011-12-30T23:17:56.047-05:00Another example might be if someone says, "Me...Another example might be if someone says, "Men play football." If I don't want to be a moron or an idiot, should I assume that the person is referring to *all* men? <br /><br />Trinity wrote: "...bachelors are unmarried but not all bachelors are unmarried"<br /><br />I think what we have here is Trinity trying equate this with what I wrote. Here is what I wrote:<br /><br />"How about the fact that we know men lie and make up stories, just like the ones we find in the bible?"<br /><br />Honestly, Trinity, if you think our respective entries are in any way, shape or form, the same thing, then it's no wonder that you swallowed Jesus rising from the dead hook, line and sinker. <br /><br />Where did I say "all" men? Tell me. I would like to know. As indicated above, saying "men" does not mean, "all men." Understand, if I had wanted to generalize and make it applicable to "all men" I would have written it. All you have done is ignored context. <br /><br />Like Mose Allison, the talented jazz musician sings, "Your mind is on vacation, but your mouth is working overtime."<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-45435316106436016372011-12-30T23:17:33.606-05:002011-12-30T23:17:33.606-05:00Trinity wrote to Justin, complaining about me: &qu...Trinity wrote to Justin, complaining about me: "Can you please explain to this moronic fool what analytical truth is."<br /><br />I see that Justin has already provided a link. But if you don't mind explaining it to me, that would be great. I'd like to see what you have to say about analytical and synthetic truths. <br /><br />Trinity wrote: "Really, how stupid can you be...<br /><br />Shouldn't there be a question mark, and perhaps even an exclamation point, at the end of this... what... sentence?<br /><br />Trinity continued: "... what part of the word all is already in the word men doesn't this guy get?"<br /><br />What exactly is a "word all"? And what part of a "word all" are you referring to? I'm not sure you are being as clear as you can be. But then again, maybe you are. <br /><br />In any event, I'll take a stab at what I think you are attempting to make into a coherent sentence. I think you are asking me, "What part of the word "all" is already included in the word men, that Ydemoc doesn't get?" Do I have that about right?<br /><br />Well, if I have properly reworked your attempt at a sentence, and if I understand it correctly, it still doesn't make sense. The word "all" is not included in the word "men." Do you see it? A word is a symbol. I see three letters, "M - E - N, in the *word* "men." Now, would you care to tell me where in this word I can find the letters that make up the word "all?"<br /><br />But perhaps meant to say that the concept "men" includes the concept "all"? Well, in certain contexts, you might be right. But not in the context I was using the concept "men." There are also other contexts where this applies, for example: When I read an orange sign on the highway that says "Men Working" or "Men In Trees," should I -- if I don't want to be a moron or an idiot -- assume that this sign is referring to every single man on earth? Or is there a context involved, like there was in what I wrote above about men being liars? <br /><br />(continued)Ydemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-54156213117165521702011-12-30T23:13:14.147-05:002011-12-30T23:13:14.147-05:00All I wanna know is Justin do you deny or affirm
a...All I wanna know is Justin do you deny or affirm<br />analytical consequences?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-67203579364484164712011-12-30T23:08:45.428-05:002011-12-30T23:08:45.428-05:00@Ydemoc and Nide
First of to Ydemoc, thanks for t...@Ydemoc and Nide<br /><br />First of to Ydemoc, thanks for the comments. It may interest you to know that I have started an outline for a paper that will compare and contrast the arguments TAG and PAE, primary argument from existence. And further to show using a disjunctive syllogism that POE does not beg the question however it is on the back burner for the time being.<br /><br />Now to both of you<br /><br />My apologies but I can not allow myself to be pulled back into this discussion for a while. I have a project right now that is taking up all of my free time. A naval wargame simulating combat in World War II, a lot of code to audit and frankly building gunnery vs armor tables is more interesting to me at the moment, no offense intended to either of you but I just cant spare the attention right now. I of course will continue to follow the discussion.Justin Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17804641315202800289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-27001962530468147922011-12-30T23:06:55.191-05:002011-12-30T23:06:55.191-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Justin Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17804641315202800289noreply@blogger.com