tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post2364321001455800177..comments2024-03-27T09:11:00.450-04:00Comments on Incinerating Presuppositionalism: The Hideous Rigors of Christian Salvation DoubtBahnsen Burnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-85383924363496259452016-04-25T18:07:17.755-04:002016-04-25T18:07:17.755-04:00Also, how very strange it is that the same argumen...Also, how very strange it is that the same arguments which are given so confidently to unbelievers are not used on those within the movement who have doubts.<br /><br />"Pastor, I'm struggling with doubt."<br /><br />"What? That's incoherent. You inherently know God exists in the same way I know God exists - because it is revealed to you in such a way that you can be sure."<br /><br />"Well, I'm no longer sure about that, Pastor."<br /><br />"Well then, you've given up knowledge. Couldn't you just as easily be strapped face-down to a bed in some asylum if you doubt something as fundamental to reality and reason as the existence of God?"<br /><br />"I guess so."<br /><br />"Well then, there's no point me continuing to talk with anyone so stupid they can't even account for their own reason."<br /><br />"But Pastor, I was hoping to discuss with you Hebrews 6:6. It's a real stumbling block for me."<br /><br />"I don't do Bible study with unbelievers, and you admitted to me you 'doubt' the existence of God! Bad day, 1 John 1:11!"Alex Lloydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12876303782707166203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-75922314909325948152015-11-25T14:49:39.609-05:002015-11-25T14:49:39.609-05:00Hi Dawson,
I found this post via your 'Improb...Hi Dawson,<br /><br />I found this post via your 'Improbably Resurrection' post and the Habermas hyperlink. <br /><br />I thought that this conversation was another instance of 'salvation doubt' of the Justin Seeger's variety. <br /><br /><i><br />Kathy Kinsley November 13th, 2015 (#): <br /><br />@asdf<br />“But it is not true between man and God.<br /> God CAN be proven by any man to himself through mental prayer.”<br /><br />No. I spent a couple of years trying – really trying to be a good Christian. I prayed and prayed and prayed.<br /><br />Either God hates me, or your prayer is only a self-defined “safe space.”<br /><br />I reverted to agnostic, and there I shall stay. I have no proof for or against. And, quite frankly – I don’t much care anymore.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />asdf November 23rd, 2015 (#): <br />@Kathy Kinsley<br />“I spent a couple of years trying to be a good Christian”<br /> “Either God hates me, or..”<br /><br />There couldn’t be any other option?<br /> I can think of at least 5 other options which could block or diminish your relationship with God:<br /> You were living in sin,<br /> You were living ungratefully,<br /> You lacked bodily mortification(fasting),<br /> You lacked spiritual mortification(humbling yourself and keeping a proper perspective of your own importance)<br /> You lacked spiritual reading.<br /><br />You set out to be a good Christian but struggled with prayer and doubt.<br /> Did you read the writings of the saints/early Christians on those topics(e.g., Ignatius/Augustine on doubt, Ignatius/Alphonsus/Teresa of Avila on prayer)?<br /><br />Oh. You didn’t? Didn’t you think someone in the last 2000 years had the same questions. Don’t you want to know what answers they found?<br /> Or maybe none of them were as bright as Kathy Kinsley.<br /><br />“I don’t much care anymore.”<br />You probably didn’t care much then either.<br /> That might have something to do with your failure.<br /><br />“Dear God if you’re out there please show me a sign, by giving me what I want. Otherwise, I will do what I want MYSELF.”<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />c andrew November 25th, 2015 (#): <br />Hi Kathy,<br /><br />Do you notice how easily ‘blaming the victim’ comes to those who would discount your internal state while vociferously asserting the universal validity of their own? <br /><br />Just another instance of the ‘Motte and Bailey’ Fallacy. Or, perhaps, just ‘Bait and Switch’.<br /> </i><br /><br />The entire post and commentariat can be found here.<br /><br />http://classicalvalues.com/2015/11/whose-hands-are-on-the-warning-triggers/#commentsc papenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06282668997314380216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-16868886972112974932015-09-21T15:18:31.752-04:002015-09-21T15:18:31.752-04:00Bohler's advice to Wesley to "Preach fait...Bohler's advice to Wesley to "Preach faith till you have it; and then, because you have it, you will preach faith." reminded me of the suggestion that Blaise Pascal offers concerning his wager to those who just could not will themselves to believe. He advises them to dutifully perform the rituals of the faith and with time some may simply find themselves believing. In effect they would be confusing the familiar with the truth.<br /><br /><br />When Kim Davis, celebrity county clerk, was released from jail she said, "It is not a light issue for me. It is a heaven or hell decision". I would think that statement is indicative of a bad case of salvation doubt. Maybe she feels she needs to make up for a lot of past sins, or should I say what she now considers sins since she recently converted to her current faith. johzekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09811241149230277837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-16364040890834913722015-09-18T20:45:11.995-04:002015-09-18T20:45:11.995-04:00"There's a profound difference between de..."There's a profound difference between defending atheism and defending reason"<br /><br />At present only objectivists stick to reason. The rest are ready for many concessions, principally when they have to justify their depraved morality samonedohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14502545219196104567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-56564543750755409122015-09-15T19:12:42.242-04:002015-09-15T19:12:42.242-04:00I think Peikoff tried to address those concerns la...I think Peikoff tried to address those concerns later in the quote from him:<br /><br />"But reality is “benevolent” in the sense that if you do adapt to it—i.e., if you do think, value, and act rationally, then you can (and barring accidents you will) achieve your values. You will, because those values are based on reality."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491185785203773394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-80806882999130369652015-09-15T17:22:35.995-04:002015-09-15T17:22:35.995-04:00Hello Dawson
Ah, Objectivism with a heart!
I'...Hello Dawson<br /><br />Ah, Objectivism with a heart!<br /><br />I'm not sure I understand the BUP at all it's unclear to me...it's called benevolent universe but then it reads it's not a benevolent universe (eh up?! here it seems A=A isn't quite true)<br /><br />"Success and happiness are the metaphysically to-be-expected. In other words, Objectivism rejects the view that human fulfillment is impossible, that man is doomed to misery, that the universe is malevolent."<br /><br />If the universe is neutral/impartial/disinterested - how can there be any expectation at all? Many many have perisht without fufilment.<br /><br />"Pain, suffering, failure do not have metaphysical significance—they do not reveal the nature of reality."<br /><br />the converse can just as easily be statid:<br /><br />Success, prosperity and wellbeing do not have any metaphysical significance....<br /><br /><br />We shall ultimately die. So will the universe. Isn't this deem'd a 'tragegy' a 'doom' a 'misery'?<br /> <br />How can deth not be a part of reality? Deth will overtake prosperity, success, life etc..isn't that the massiv wully mammuth in the objectivist room?!<br /><br /><br />Cheers<br /><br />Alif<br /><br /><br />praestanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02343506153156692581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-63261200893729606132015-09-09T23:32:20.782-04:002015-09-09T23:32:20.782-04:00Hello Alif,
You asked: “Is there within this phil...Hello Alif,<br /><br />You asked: “Is there within this philosophy of reason room for PMA - positive mental attitude? "As one thinks, so shall one be" [James Allen; Proverbs etc). This is a very old saw.”<br /><br />We have something better. It’s called the benevolent universe premise. You can read about it <a href="http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/benevolent_universe_premise.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <br /><br />You asked:”And what is the the Objectivist metric of love? Is love 'measurable' this is plainly unreasonable, surely. 100 luvetres?”<br /><br />I cannot speak for others here. But as for me, I measure an individual’s love by his visible choices and actions. If someone says “I love accounting,” but his visible choices and actions do not demonstrate this, would I be wise if I did <i>not</i> integrate this fact into my assessment of the truth of his claim about himself?<br /><br />We do not need a unit of measure (e.g., “luvetres”) in order to measure love, just as we do not need a unit of measure in order to recognize that a basketball is bigger than a tennis ball. I don’t know the precise measurements of either a basketball or a tennis ball, but I know that one is larger than the other just by comparing the two. That’s enough to give us an objective standard of measurement. It is only later that we come up with units by which we can quantify the measurements we observe in the world.<br /><br />Regards,<br />DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-56087888399628323202015-09-09T16:54:31.431-04:002015-09-09T16:54:31.431-04:00Is there within this philosophy of reason room for...<br />Is there within this philosophy of reason room for PMA - positive mental attitude? "As one thinks, so shall one be" [James Allen; Proverbs etc). This is a very old saw. <br /><br />Psychologists and Physicians talk about psychosomatic illness - where consciousness/mental states can affect one's body. <br /><br />And what is the the Objectivist metric of love? Is love 'measurable' this is plainly unreasonable, surely. 100 luvetres? <br /><br />I can't find the surch butn. I was hoping t' find summat on Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer and so on. <br /><br /><br />Ta loads<br /><br />Alifpraestanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02343506153156692581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-71791685453874898872015-09-08T03:30:25.972-04:002015-09-08T03:30:25.972-04:00The link I gave was to a much more recent intercha...The link I gave was to a much more recent interchange on the Youtube channel of "SecHummer" from May 2015. The Dillahunty debate was in 2014, hence the comment about Sye emerging 'once a year'. I didn't make that too clear, so I apologise.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491185785203773394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-64664791028924590362015-09-08T00:01:01.058-04:002015-09-08T00:01:01.058-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491185785203773394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-49406074056875605502015-09-07T11:08:13.106-04:002015-09-07T11:08:13.106-04:00Hello Cameron and Ydemoc,
Cameron wrote: "No...Hello Cameron and Ydemoc,<br /><br />Cameron wrote: "Note the grammatical error in the section you quoted. It says 'wising' as opposed to 'wishing'."<br /><br />That was my mistake, not Ydemoc's. Thanks for pointing it out! I've corrected it. Now it's even better!<br /><br />Yes, I think I watched that debate between Sye and Dillahunty. And I agree - I'm not at all impressed with Dillahunty. Nor with many of the other campaigners for atheism. There's a profound difference between defending atheism and defending reason. It's reason that needs to be re-awakened on mass scale in our culture. If it's not re-awakened here, it's not going to suddenly wake up where it's never thrived before. But this seems to be lost on the pop atheists of our day.<br /><br />To argue that the senses are unreliable because, for example, staring into a bright light can damage them, is embarrassingly weak. If I break my arm, I won't be able to carry heavy bags of groceries from my car to my kitchen. Does that mean that arms are not reliable in the first place? Rather, what we should learn is to take care of ourselves, not dismiss our bodies' abilities. And indeed, how did Sye know that he was staring into a light? Blank out.<br /><br />Your mention of "heathens in the street" made me realize something. Over on T-blogue, Steve Hays seems to have special disgust for "apostates." John Loftus, for example. Or Bart Ehrman. But now that Michael Sudduth is officially an apostate, where's all that ire? There was a bit of a kerfuffle back in 2012 when Sudduth announced his departure from Christianity, but it died down not long after that. But Loftus, Carrier, Erhman, etc., continually get raked over the coals over there.<br /><br />Why does Sudduth now get a pass?<br /><br />Regards,<br />DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-81706253657525714782015-09-07T08:01:24.993-04:002015-09-07T08:01:24.993-04:00Talking about Bruggencate, he apparently surfaces ...Talking about Bruggencate, he apparently surfaces only once a year nowadays. I've found his most recent interchange here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP-Ia3bpe8Q), from May this year.<br /><br />At one point, Bruggencate uses the light in the room to 'prove' a point. Bruggencate argues that if he was to stare into the light his vision would be affected, so we cannot trust our senses. <br /><br />Needless to say, Sye, if "mere man" cannot trust his senses, how do you know there is even a light there to begin with? <br /><br />His opponent isn't much better, he seems to think that if an assumption is pragmatically useful, it is "powerfully circular" to beg the question.<br /><br />For his part Bruggencate seems to have changed his tack in this video. Far from his "Christian Shark" persona (his laptop accessory) when "debating Dillahunty", he appears now as a friend, genuinely caring for his enemies. From what you have described here, it would only be the beginning of a descent into the 'Christian Cake', fear, guilt, and doubt in unspecified quantities, baked in the imagination until crispy brown, ready to shout at heathens in the street.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491185785203773394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-14518357545613779192015-09-07T06:15:00.391-04:002015-09-07T06:15:00.391-04:00Ydemoc,
Note the grammatical error in the section...Ydemoc,<br /><br />Note the grammatical error in the section you quoted. It says "wising" as opposed to "wishing".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491185785203773394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-61340771785125983412015-09-06T01:57:25.207-04:002015-09-06T01:57:25.207-04:00Dawson,
I've just started digging into your l...Dawson,<br /><br />I've just started digging into your latest, and it is as enjoyable and enlightening as always. <br /><br />You wrote: "Nor do Objectivists need to meet every Sunday to try to convince themselves that there is a reality, that the objects of our conscious activity exist and are what they are independent of conscious activity, that wising doesn’t make it so, that reason is the proper epistemological standard of knowledge, that values are inherently selfish in nature, that the proper social structure for human beings is one predicated on the concept of individual rights, that each individual has a right to exist for his own sake, and so on. "<br /><br />Dammit! There go my plans for Objectivist Sunday School.<br /><br />YdemocYdemochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03498165330193613762noreply@blogger.com