tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post7819232957007671737..comments2024-03-27T09:11:00.450-04:00Comments on Incinerating Presuppositionalism: I Reject Christianity Because It’s Not True, Part IIIBahnsen Burnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-85530126560825966472014-04-23T01:20:23.884-04:002014-04-23T01:20:23.884-04:00I have made a number of edits and corrections to t...I have made a number of edits and corrections to the blog entry above. Most of them fairly minor typos, but also at a few places I reworked a sentence or added a new clause or two.<br /><br />Hopefully it is now clearer and, of course, stronger in what it says.<br /><br />Regards,<br />DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-39645917224344049192014-03-23T14:11:15.298-04:002014-03-23T14:11:15.298-04:00Anderson continues:
and they're too early and...Anderson continues:<br /><br />and they're too early and unembellished to be legends that developed decades after Jesus' life.<br /><br />Robert M. Price often speaks of Sabbati Zevi <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi<br /><br />A Jewish messianic figure who lived in the 17th century and had a large following who expected him to restore a Jewish kingdom. While he was alive stories of his miracle deeds proliferated in short order time. The Wiki article reports:<br /><br />"Sabbatai's imprisonment discouraged neither him nor his followers at this stage. He was treated well in prison, perhaps because of bribes paid. This seems to have strengthened belief within his immediate circle of followers. Fabulous reports concerning the miraculous deeds "the Messiah" was performing in the Turkish capital were spread by Ghazzati, Abraham Yachini, and Primo among the Jews of Smyrna and in many other communities, and the messianic expectations in the Jewish diasporas continued to rise."<br /><br />Charles Mansion followers described him having done miracles. Elvis Presley's fried chicken recipe was listed differently in more than a few supposedly authoritative accounts of Elvis' life. The former figure is sinister and later trivial, the examples depict that ardent followers tend to exaggerate according to their whimsical desires as did Sabbatai Zevi's followers. From the Wiki article. >><br /><br />"In some parts of Europe, Jews began to unroof their houses and prepare for a new "exodus". In almost every synagogue, Sabbatai's initials were posted, and prayers for him were inserted in the following form: "Bless our Lord and King, the holy and righteous Sabbatai Zevi, the Messiah of the God of Jacob." In Hamburg, the council introduced the custom of praying for Sabbatai not only on Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath), but also on Monday and Thursday. Unbelievers were compelled to remain in the synagogue and join in the prayer with a loud Amen. Sabbatai's picture was printed together with that of King David in most of the prayer-books, along with his kabbalistic formulas and penances." <br /><br />Christian apologist not only beg the question regarding the time for legends to develop, they ignore the many cases that give the lie to their fairy tale. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-37596536646765118642014-03-23T13:04:10.296-04:002014-03-23T13:04:10.296-04:00For example, in the earliest epistolary layer, we ...<i>For example, in the earliest epistolary layer, we are told of a Jesus who was “made of a woman, made under the law” (Gal. 4:4) and “made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Rom. 1:3).</i><br /><br />Since I learned to think for myself, this has consistently impressed me as strange. If someone is discussing some other person with others, why would it be useful to the expositor to inform her interlocutors that the subject she was discussing was and actual person who had a mother. That Paul or the New Testament's Ecclesiastical Editor(s) or interpolater(s) felt it necessary to insert this reference means their audience did not understand Jesus to have been a historical person. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-53361255421661076402014-03-23T10:28:12.999-04:002014-03-23T10:28:12.999-04:00Dawson observed: Among the gospels, Mark is genera...Dawson observed: <i>Among the gospels, Mark is generally agreed to be the earliest extant gospel narrative; the gospels of Matthew and Luke were modeled on these as though their authors sought to improve on Mark’s prototype; John seems to have been written in reaction to much of the theology contained in the other three, given its profound variance against them (and even where John’s narrative shows overlap with any of the others, “in every case the time or location is changed and the whole scene is differently imagined” [B. Lindars, The Gospel of John, p. 27]). </i><br /><br />That the Gospel evangelists were changing the story to suit their own theological agendas is the current evidence informing our assessment of the consequent probability of the evidence on the hypothesis that early Christianity was a schizophrenic diversity of sects each with their own set of doctrines. Because the evangelists were changing the story to suit their desires and in light of the high prior probability that the sects involved in any oral tradition were making Jesus stories up as they went along, then the Bayesian probability the Gospels are based upon made up stories is high enough to be a probabilistically rational belief. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-49361435941037795422014-03-23T10:16:46.827-04:002014-03-23T10:16:46.827-04:00Dawson's over all point here is excellent.
W...Dawson's over all point here is excellent. <br /><br /><i>What’s important to note on this point is that no New Testament document has any individual being an eyewitness to Jesus’ resurrection. One point that all the canonical gospels seem to agree on is that Jesus rose from the dead in a sealed tomb, which means no ordinary human being could have observed this alleged event, the most important event in all of Christianity! The danger of statements like Anderson’s is the potential that this often-ignored fact is typically overlooked: even the biblical record itself does not support the claim that anyone was an eyewitness to the resurrection. Moreover, I have not read in the New Testament any claim from an author of one its documents “to have spoken and eaten with [Jesus] days after he was publicly executed.” There are stories to this effect about characters figuring in the overall storyline, but at no point in the NT have I seen firsthand testimony to the effect, “I saw Jesus after he was risen; I ate with him; I fellowshipped with him; I touched his wounds.” On the contrary, we have anonymous authors saying that this happened to someone, always using the third person in such cases. </i>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-75761071058930055402014-03-23T10:05:27.644-04:002014-03-23T10:05:27.644-04:00Dawson wrote: "What’s important to note on t...Dawson wrote: "What’s important to note on this point is that no New Testament document has any individual being an eyewitness to Jesus’ resurrection. One point that all the canonical gospels seem to agree on is that Jesus rose from the dead in a sealed tomb, which means no ordinary human being could have observed this alleged event, the most important event in all of Christianity!"<br /><br />It's entirely gratuitous to grant that any parts of the Gospel stories are actually based on facts. Readers are referred to the works of G.A. Wells, Robert M Price, Richard Carrier, Herman Deterring. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-75587035991513354852014-03-23T09:57:53.388-04:002014-03-23T09:57:53.388-04:00When Bahnsen wrote : "The understanding which...When Bahnsen wrote : "The understanding which the unbeliever lacks can only be provided when his mind has been opened" he didn't get the wink and nudge in the ribs to the reader found in John 16:12-13<br /><br />"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.<br /><br />“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."<br /><br />John was composed in the second century possibly by the gnostic Christian leader Cerinthus, this passage inidcated the Gospel was "revealed" to the author by channeling (fantasizing) of the "spirit of Jesus". Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03469718358131331499noreply@blogger.com