tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post115150300162389551..comments2024-03-27T09:11:00.450-04:00Comments on Incinerating Presuppositionalism: Carr vs. ColeBahnsen Burnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1151633287511097032006-06-29T22:08:00.000-04:002006-06-29T22:08:00.000-04:00Thanks, Dawson, for this great analysis (and to St...Thanks, Dawson, for this great analysis (and to Steven for appearing on the show). I listened to this exchange a few months ago, and really loved the points Steven made. I agree that the "personal experience" of modern Christians is all we need to appeal to when explaining the lack of necessity for a bodily resurrection in Paul's letters.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, it would be nice if Christian radio shows here in the states were conducted with such respect as seen on Premiere.Zachary Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16991061670470673718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1151627138728265442006-06-29T20:25:00.000-04:002006-06-29T20:25:00.000-04:00NR,Good to see you again! You write: Saying the wo...NR,<BR/><BR/>Good to see you again! <BR/><BR/>You write: <BR/><BR/><I>Saying the words "I believe in Jesus" do not make it real to me.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed, simply affirming belief in something does not make that something real or true. Nor does actually believing it. As I've pointed out, reality does not conform to our consciousness. But isn't this view suggested by Christians who insist that one can merely <I>choose</I> to believe? I think this was a major pain point for me when I was a Christian: merely believing was not going to be sufficient to me. I wanted to <I>know</I>. Well, now I do know, and hence I am now an atheist.<BR/><BR/>This is definitely something worth exploring as I rummage through some of the e-mails Christians have sent me over the years. Some have made some pretty amazing statements, though I don't think they realized it or thought they were amazing for the reasons I find them amazing.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1151626100796072022006-06-29T20:08:00.000-04:002006-06-29T20:08:00.000-04:00Steven wrote:I meant to say that Paul's letters ar...Steven wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>I meant to say that Paul's letters are primary evidence, not private evidence.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you, Steven. In fact, it was this very sentence - though the following clause - which proved most difficult for me to transcribe. What you write here makes much better sense, and I have corrected the statement to read as follows:<BR/><BR/>"Well, I don’t believe what Paul writes, but Paul’s letters are <B>primary evidence</B>, the sort historians really value."<BR/><BR/>I agree wholly with the point you were making in your response at this turn, a point which Christians themselves seem to overlook in some ways. Some Christian apologists want to take the bible as evidence proving its own claims. I explained to <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/katholon/ContraDusman0106.htm" REL="nofollow">Dusman</A> that "I'm perfectly willing to accept the text of the New Testament as evidence showing what some ancient people *believed*." That's something quite different. But no matter how many times you explain this to some, they seem unable or unwilling to grasp it.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1151601664112325592006-06-29T13:21:00.000-04:002006-06-29T13:21:00.000-04:00Thank you for your evidence. I agree that Canon Mi...Thank you for your evidence. I agree that Canon Michael Cole's 'experience' of Jesus is proof that Jesus did not need to physically appear to anybody, before Paul would write about Jesus appearing to various people in 1 Corinthians 15.<BR/><BR/>I meant to say that Paul's letters are primary evidence, not private evidence.<BR/><BR/>Primary evidence is what historians value most.<BR/><BR/>Paul's letters show that whole groups of converted Jesus-worshippers (in Thessalonica and Corinth) believed that the dead were lost and scoffed at the idea that God would choose to make corpses live again.<BR/><BR/>How could these Jesus-worshippers have come to believe that? Had not their Lord and Saviour 'proved' the resurrection in Matthew 22?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.com