tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post111982180095749622..comments2024-03-27T09:11:00.450-04:00Comments on Incinerating Presuppositionalism: Is the Assumption of the Christian God Axiomatic?Bahnsen Burnerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120368759086800392005-07-03T01:32:00.000-04:002005-07-03T01:32:00.000-04:00Hello GF76,Yes, that would be a good place to star...Hello GF76,<BR/><BR/>Yes, that would be a good place to start your discovery of a rational understanding of induction. I regret the price of the product, and its absence from the shelf, but that does not undo the product's importance. <BR/><BR/>The way I see it, is that you have two basic options. One, you can imagine that an invisible magic being takes care of all your worries in every department, be it conceptualization, induction, integration, understanding, or philosophizing. Or two, you can investigate the nature of man's mind in order to learn and understand how it works, to discover how he perceives, forms concepts, and integrates those concepts into higher abstractions.<BR/><BR/>I've had several discussions with Dr. Kelley. I'm happy to report that he agrees with my general conception of the inductive process, that it essentially consists of applying the law of causality (which is the application of the law of identity to action) to entity classes (which concept-formation makes possible). This is a natural process of human consciousness which does not require recourse to any god-belief.<BR/><BR/>I realize it's frustrating to those who want to point to an invisible magic being in order to "account for" things that have puzzled previous thinkers. But you know, there is such a thing as reality, and it's not such a bad thing. Man's mind is not incompetent, regardless of who disapproves.<BR/><BR/>I say to you, Paul, live, and let live. What's wrong with that?Bahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120250528394562192005-07-01T16:42:00.000-04:002005-07-01T16:42:00.000-04:00Dawson, you said, "Kelley elaborates on this in hi...Dawson, <BR/><BR/>you said, "Kelley elaborates on this in his “Universals and Induction.”"<BR/><BR/>Are you referring to his audio lecture series 'The Foundations of Knowledge' for $75? They are out of stock at the objectivist store. Is this book form which is perhaps cheaper?Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120089990024027812005-06-29T20:06:00.000-04:002005-06-29T20:06:00.000-04:00Franc: "'groundfighter76' has nothing to offer to ...Franc: "'groundfighter76' has nothing to offer to anyone, and his religion has nothing to offer to any thinking person."<BR/><BR/>Right, and that's the bottom line for Christianity: it offers no value to man, and is useless to those who choose to live on earth.Bahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120082074505941082005-06-29T17:54:00.000-04:002005-06-29T17:54:00.000-04:00yeah aaron you are right. Let's hope he uses this...yeah aaron you are right. Let's hope he uses this when he enters into a debate with a VT presuppositionalist.Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120081312269886842005-06-29T17:41:00.000-04:002005-06-29T17:41:00.000-04:00Dawson, you handled that one very well. Good job.Dawson, you handled that one very well. Good job.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120074205588330022005-06-29T15:43:00.000-04:002005-06-29T15:43:00.000-04:00"groundfighter76" is like Manata, "much ado about ..."groundfighter76" is like Manata, "much ado about nothing". If you cross out all the unnecessary or vacuous parts of his posts, there's nothing left. "groundfighter76" has nothing to offer to anyone, and his religion has nothing to offer to any thinking person.Francois Tremblayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04760072622693359795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120054066291560632005-06-29T10:07:00.000-04:002005-06-29T10:07:00.000-04:00GF76: "No one is hiding."Then you're a no one, and...GF76: "No one is hiding."<BR/><BR/>Then you're a no one, and you are hiding.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "You are the one attempting to refute presuppositionalism." <BR/><BR/>Actually, I'm simply showing how presuppositionalism refutes itself. If you were a careful thinker, you'd see that by now yourself.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "You are doing this without being familiar with it." <BR/><BR/>What was it about Gene's comment that I was unfamiliar with?<BR/><BR/>GF76: "You have claimed in the past to have read bahnsen"<BR/><BR/>Indeed, I've quoted him quite a bit in my pieces. How could I do this if I had not read him? Also, I've asked you for specific citations of points that you apparently think are important, and yet withhold for reasons that you do not make clear. Cat and mouse? Absolutely, you are hiding.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "- now if you want to retract that then go ahead" <BR/><BR/>Retract what, and why? Because you don't like it? You give no substance - just unargued, unsubstantiated accusations ("strawman," "you are doing this without being familiar with it," etc.).<BR/><BR/>GF76: "but then you'll be made to look like a fool in attempting to refute someone without reading them." <BR/><BR/>The proper pronoun referring to the antecedent "someone" would be either "him" or "her" (since the antecedent is singular, not plural like the pronoun you used). As for making me "look like a fool" (apparently an ambition you share with Paul Manata - you grow in resemblance with every comment), you have all the opportunity to do this. But you offer no substance. Like Paul, you just offer baseless charges and name-calling. In doing so, you help seal my case, so I invite you to continue posting your comments. They make great specimens.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "Bahnsen dealt with the first two 'questions' and devoted a chapter to it in one of his books. I am not going to spell it out for you as you have claimed to 'read' him and you should know where it is."<BR/><BR/>I see. So not only do you insist on hiding, you want to play games. That's fine. I'm supposing if Bahnsen really had anything of substance to say on this matter, you'd be yelling it from the rooftops. But instead, you slink in the shadows. Again, you make a great specimen.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "I know you 'responded' to my accusation." <BR/><BR/>And how!<BR/><BR/>GF76: "But I'm still not seeing where you attempted to understand what Gene meant by what he said," <BR/><BR/>Read my blog. My blog article was where I attempted to make sense of what Gene might have meant by what he said. It would be helpful if Gene explained himself, but I think there's a good reason why he didn't try to do this.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "you just assumed you knew what he was saying. That's a good tactic."<BR/><BR/>Actually, that's not the case. I explored many possibilities of what he might have meant. You're welcome to introduce more, but you seem to prefer the darkness of your shadows. When you muster up the courage to actually defend your belief in invisible magic beings and cartoon universe, please, offer something more substantial.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120053229795390022005-06-29T09:53:00.000-04:002005-06-29T09:53:00.000-04:00No one is hiding. You are the one attempting to r...No one is hiding. You are the one attempting to refute presuppositionalism. You are doing this without being familiar with it. You have claimed in the past to have read bahnsen - now if you want to retract that then go ahead but then you'll be made to look like a fool in attempting to refute someone without reading them. Bahnsen dealt with the first two 'questions' and devoted a chapter to it in one of his books. I am not going to spell it out for you as you have claimed to 'read' him and you should know where it is.<BR/><BR/>I know you 'responded' to my accusation. But I'm still not seeing where you attempted to understand what Gene meant by what he said, you just assumed you knew what he was saying. That's a good tactic.Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120052365367424692005-06-29T09:39:00.000-04:002005-06-29T09:39:00.000-04:00GF76: "Your snide remarks aside," Which remarks of...GF76: "Your snide remarks aside," <BR/><BR/>Which remarks of mine do you consider "snide," and why?<BR/><BR/>GF76: "if you want to continue in this strawman fashion then be my guest." <BR/><BR/>I responded to your accusation of misrepresentation. I also asked what specifically you think I was misrepresenting since you did not say. I was interacting with a statement by Gene Cook. Did I misrepresent him? You have not shown that I have. And still you accuse me of straw man.<BR/><BR/>GF76: "The VT presuppositionalist starting point was also dealt with by Bahnsen (I'll leave it to you to figure out where)." <BR/><BR/>Must not be very important if you deliberately withhold citations. Either that, or you're afraid that I'll show it to be intellectually worthless.<BR/><BR/>ME: "For instance, by what means are you aware of what you call ‘God’ and how did you distinguish it from other things, either real or imagined?"<BR/><BR/>GF76: "Bahnsen has also already addressed this as well, but you have not interacted with any of it."<BR/><BR/>And you're not going to tell us where Bahnsen "addressed this," because.... ? <BR/><BR/>Can anyone tell me, why do these guys want to hide so much? I take their constant dodging as confirmation of one of my major points: <B>presuppositionalism is all bluff</B>.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120051308921893432005-06-29T09:21:00.000-04:002005-06-29T09:21:00.000-04:00Dawson, Your snide remarks aside, if you want to c...Dawson, <BR/><BR/>Your snide remarks aside, if you want to continue in this strawman fashion then be my guest. The VT presuppositionalist starting point was also dealt with by Bahnsen (I'll leave it to you to figure out where). <BR/><BR/>You said, "For instance, by what means are you aware of what you call ‘God’ and how did you distinguish it from other things, either real or imagined?"<BR/><BR/>Bahnsen has also already addressed this as well, but you have not interacted with any of it.Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1120007082658092282005-06-28T21:04:00.000-04:002005-06-28T21:04:00.000-04:00GF76: “Oh and as far as this blog entry goes, it i...GF76: “Oh and as far as this blog entry goes, it is a strawman - a large one. We don't claim that God is an axiom (bad choice of words for Gene to use in my opinion).” <BR/><BR/>Sorry, not sure I follow you here. You say my blog is a strawman. What exactly have I misrepresented? My blog was an interaction with Gene Cook’s statement. Where have I misrepresented what Gene stated? You admit that Gene’s use of ‘axiomatic’ was a “bad choice of words.” Fine and dandy. But it doesn’t follow from this that I have misrepresented anything. I’m not even claiming that Christians have an axiom. In fact, I don’t think they do. <BR/><BR/>GF76: “God would be considered our ultimate authority/starting point/presupp.” <BR/><BR/>How is this different from what Gene stated? He called “the assumption of the Christian god” axiomatic. And here you equate your god with what you call “ultimate authority/starting point/presupp.” Are you saying there’s a difference between an axiom and an ultimate starting point? Can you elaborate?<BR/><BR/>GF76: “The reason this blog entry is a strawman is that it attempts to paint us with holding to a *temporal* axiom (temporal in reasoning); however, when we say we hold that God is our ultimate authority/starting point/presupp, we mean it in an *epistemological* sense not a *temporal* sense.” <BR/><BR/>My blog “attempts to paint [whom?] with holding to a *temporal* axiom (temporal in reasoning)”? Gene stated that his “assumption of the Christian god” is axiomatic. That’s what I interacted with. This notion of a “temporal axiom” is yet another useless distinction which is introduced in order to create an imaginary point of antithesis. I can say this because the concept ‘temporal’ is not conceptually irreducible, while a legitimate axiom is. What both you and Gene need, GF76, is a conceptual starting point. But you won’t identify one because you don’t have one.<BR/><BR/>GF76: “Chris Smith tried to use this against Paul Manata over at one of the boards.”<BR/><BR/>My, you really do follow Paul’s movements. Should we think of you has his one and only fan?<BR/><BR/>GF76: “I'm surprised Dawson doesn't know this as John Frame points this out in one of his 'beginning' books (as he has claimed to read all the presuppositional apologists).”<BR/><BR/>Where have I “claimed to read all the presuppositional apologists”? Can you cite where Frame discusses what you’re talking about for further reading enjoyment? <BR/><BR/>GF76: “This would make it temporal in that he said that we infer God from a previously accepted position which would be logic and more basic.” <BR/><BR/>It’s not clear how inferring something from some prior point of departure makes that which is inferred “temporal.” You have some hidden premises here that you need to bring out and expose to the refreshing breeze of reason. That won’t happen on the All-Bahnsen list, so you’re right to come to me for your education. Again, you need a conceptual starting point. If you don’t have one, don’t blame me – you’re the one who wants to believe in invisible magic beings. The issue here is one of logical hierarchy, not temporality. Try to stick with the topic.<BR/><BR/>GF76: “However, we argue that God is our presupposition/starting point in the epistemological sense answering the question of what would be required for logic to even exist.” <BR/><BR/>Just by admitting that this is something you argue, is sufficient to tell me that you’re not thinking very clearly on this matter, or that you’re simply not integrating the points that I presented, or both. Why not go back through my blog and address the questions that I raise? For instance, by what means are you aware of what you call ‘God’ and how did you distinguish it from other things, either real or imagined? I’m supposing you’ll never give any clear answers to such questions, for your god-belief relishes the darkness of an anti-conceptual cave. <BR/><BR/>GF76: “It deals with modality” <BR/><BR/>Can you explain this? Or are you just going to leave it like this – completely unexplained (and thus completely contentless)?<BR/><BR/>GF76: “and is more along the lines of what are the 'necessary preconditions for the possibility of intelligibility'.”<BR/><BR/>If you think your god-belief provides “the ‘necessary preconditions for the possibility of intelligibility’,” you need to explain what you mean by “intelligibility,” and where you got this term. It’s not something I’ve ever read in the bible. Methinks you’ve confused poetry for doctrine.<BR/><BR/>GF76: “No dawson hasn't written anything on it (to my knowledge)” <BR/><BR/>Actually, I’ve written lots on induction. But to date I have not published any of it on my blog. Perhaps in the future I’ll get a chance to. But for the interim, I defer to Kelley.<BR/><BR/>GF76: “but he was on goose claiming that David Kelley's theory of concepts had solved the problem. I asked him for a reference on goose but he neglected that part of my comment.”<BR/><BR/>For one, it’s not Kelley’s theory of concepts, it’s Rand’s which makes induction superbly intelligible (one certainly isn’t going to achieve intelligibility by appealing to invisible magic beings). Kelley elaborates on this in his “Universals and Induction.” I thought I referenced this before, but if I didn’t, my deepest apologies. In principle, induction is a problem for those who adopt a faulty understanding of concepts, such as did Hume. Hume’s conception of the inductive enterprise is all too often accepted uncritically on Hume’s own terms (Bahnsen had this very naïve habit himself). Last year, I approached James Anderson, author of Secular Responses to the Problem of Induction. He clearly was not familiar with the Objectivist conception of induction. For one, he doesn’t deal with it in his paper (he would need to if he wants to eliminate it from the realm of possibilities). But that could be explained by willfully ignoring it. What tells me that he’s not at all familiar with the distinctive approach to induction that Objectivism affords was his response to a statement I had made.<BR/><BR/>I wrote: “I must say, however, I'm always surprised, when reading a paper that attempts to deal with induction, that there is no discussion of concepts, the nature of their forming, or their relationship to inductive generalization, as if these issues did not matter.” <BR/> <BR/>In response to this, James wrote: <BR/><BR/><I>Well, it's not immediately obvious to me how the nature of concept formation bears either on the description of the problem of induction or on the development of cogent solutions. Perhaps you can elaborate.</I> <BR/><BR/>This simply suggests to me that presuppositionalists do not approach induction as a <I>conceptual</I> matter. Indeed, here’s where the “temporal” error is committed on the part of the presuppositionalist who tries to defend BTAG: Bahnsen, like Anderson, treats induction as a matter of <I>temporal</I> estimation rather than a matter of conceptual integration. For instance, in his paper Anderson asks “What reason do we have to think that we can draw reliable conclusions about future (unobserved) instances on the basis of past (observed) instances?” Anderson drew a blank on the conceptual aspects of induction principally because he has no working theory of concepts. And that’s because his worldview, Christianity, has no theory of concepts. Christians have to look outside the bible even to find the word “induction,” let alone a worked up theory.<BR/><BR/>Yep, Christianity has a lot of problems. I’m glad they’re not mine.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119990808275980062005-06-28T16:33:00.000-04:002005-06-28T16:33:00.000-04:00Franc,Dawson said, "Another point which is easy to...Franc,<BR/><BR/>Dawson said, "Another point which is easy to overlook is that, those who say that belief in a god is axiomatic performatively contradict themselves whenever they attempt to prove that their god exists by means of argument. Proof is a process of logically securing a position on the basis of inferring its truth from some prior point of departure, one which ultimately has its basis in what we directly perceive. So a position which is inferred from some previously accepted position cannot itself be axiomatic. An axiom is a starting point, not a conclusion to some prior argument. If one presents an argument to secure the conclusion that a god exists, then the supposition that his god exists consequently cannot be his starting point. At the very best, one of the premises supporting that conclusion may be his starting point, but this could only be determined on a case by case basis, depending on the content of the argument so presented. So the apologist needs to decide: is his assumption that his god exists axiomatic in nature, or does this assumption rest on proof?"<BR/><BR/>This would make it temporal in that he said that we infer God from a previously accepted position which would be logic and more basic. However, we argue that God is our presupposition/starting point in the epistemological sense answering the question of what would be required for logic to even exist. It deals with modality and is more along the lines of what are the 'necessary preconditions for the possibility of intelligibility'.Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119988731411669842005-06-28T15:58:00.000-04:002005-06-28T15:58:00.000-04:00I talked about induction on our blog too. The "pro...I talked about induction on our blog too. The "problem of induction" only applies to a pragmatic view of reality. It does not apply to us. <BR/><BR/>"The reason this blog entry is a strawman is that it attempts to paint us with holding to a *temporal* axiom (temporal in reasoning); however, when we say we hold that God is our ultimate authority/starting point/presupp, we mean it in an *epistemological* sense not a *temporal* sense"<BR/><BR/>Um... "axiom" in Objectivism means in the epistemic sense. That's obviously the sense Dawson meant as well. So can you explain why you think this has anything to do with temporality ?Francois Tremblayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04760072622693359795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119973228512681952005-06-28T11:40:00.000-04:002005-06-28T11:40:00.000-04:00I dont claim to represent Kelley. As far as I know...I dont claim to represent Kelley. As far as I know, I came up with my objection to the PoI all on my own, based on my own interpretation of Goodman's "grue" problem.Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119968877633686882005-06-28T10:27:00.000-04:002005-06-28T10:27:00.000-04:00No dawson hasn't written anything on it (to my kno...No dawson hasn't written anything on it (to my knowledge) but he was on goose claiming that David Kelley's theory of concepts had solved the problem. I asked him for a reference on goose but he neglected that part of my comment. <BR/><BR/>So I was wanting someone to spell out David Kelley's position. I've tried googling it but have come up short. <BR/><BR/>Are you (aaron) claiming that your 'article' represents David Kelley's position? <BR/><BR/><BR/>Oh and as far as this blog entry goes, it is a strawman - a large one. We don't claim that God is an axiom (bad choice of words for Gene to use in my opinion). God would be considered our ultimate authority/starting point/presupp. The reason this blog entry is a strawman is that it attempts to paint us with holding to a *temporal* axiom (temporal in reasoning); however, when we say we hold that God is our ultimate authority/starting point/presupp, we mean it in an *epistemological* sense not a *temporal* sense. Chris Smith tried to use this against Paul Manata over at one of the boards. <BR/><BR/>I'm surprised Dawson doesn't know this as John Frame points this out in one of his 'beginning' books (as he has claimed to read all the presuppositional apologists).Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119913550098533862005-06-27T19:05:00.000-04:002005-06-27T19:05:00.000-04:00Hey Dawson, sweet blog entry. I think you explaine...Hey Dawson, sweet blog entry. I think you explained the "axiomatic God belief" problem really well. I dont think their God belief is axiomatic, for it is not truly assumed from the get-go, but acquired or arrived at after some thought or acceptance of ideas. <BR/><BR/>And groundfighter76, Im not sure if you are referring to the same blog entry that I am thinking of, but I wrote an entry called <A HREF="http://goosetheantithesis.blogspot.com/2005/05/problem-with-problem-of-induction.html" REL="nofollow">The Problem With The Problem of Induction</A>. <BR/><BR/>In that article, I attack the PoI with a water example by showing that PoI violates the axiom of identity. Then I attack the "grue" PoI idea from Goodman by explaining that grue is not actually a color, but something more; for color is merely a particular light frequency or frequency range, and that grue would be, by definition, something more than/other than a color itself. <BR/><BR/>It gets into more detail than that, but thats at least a starting point. <BR/><BR/>Did Dawson possibly also write about the Problem of Induction in an article that I am not aware of?Aaron Kinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12059982934663353474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11714522.post-1119909124284478592005-06-27T17:52:00.000-04:002005-06-27T17:52:00.000-04:00Dawson, I apologize ahead of time for not posting ...Dawson, <BR/><BR/>I apologize ahead of time for not posting something relevant to your blog entry. <BR/><BR/>However, over at goose, you claimed that Rand's theory of concepts could avoid/solves the problem of induction (as proposed by David Kelly). Could you either give a link or summarize the view and how this theory of concepts could solve the problem? <BR/><BR/>Thanks.Don Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16945116697427375137noreply@blogger.com